How many rounds to win your trust?

[Tom396]

I'm talking about a concealed carry semi-auto pistol and I'm talking about the same rounds that you would carry. How many flawless feeds and firings would you require for you to trust your concealed carry pistol and ammunition combination to save your life?

I'd like to carry some pretty expensive hollow point rounds ($1 each or more) in my carry weapon, but I want to fire enough of those rounds through my pistol to confirm it's gonna feed and go bang when I need it to. Opinions? Take care. Tom Worthington

 

[carbinemike]

Great idea for a poll Tom. I had to think back. I was going to pick 500 but you specified the same round as carrying. For the one semi auto I went through this with it was 200 of the carry round. If it makes a difference it was 500 total rounds.

At 1$ per round I can certainly see your dilemma if you are thinking 1000 rounds, not to mention how available it is.

 

[dieselmudder]

a couple hundred FMJ, and then a couple full mags of the carry ammo. depending on what your intended carry arm is that could be at or around 50.

 

[GunnyGene]

This is a statistical question. Although the history of a certain ammo can provide some information to base a decision on, it is a very small sample of the total universe of ammo of that particular brand and type, so the calculated confidence in future performance will be correspondingly low.

In mitigation, reputable ammo manufacturers do a very good job (compared to say WWII manufacturing) at controlling the quality of their ammo, largely due to technological improvements in controlling the actual process. You should factor that into building your confidence. I suggest that you contact the QA Director at the companies you are considering and ask them about their QA and Process Control programs.

 

[Scott M]

My feeling is that any weapon system can fail at any give moment. My Colt 1991A1 has fired flawlessly every range trip in the past 10 years, and my Taurus 24/7 Pro 9MM has also. I trust both as a carry weapon. I ran 13 shells through the 590A1 after getting it operational and it is now my HD go to shotty. I guess, in the end; it depends on what reliable and dependable means to you.

 

[Water Monkey]

Seems like you are talking about carry rounds and not FMJ. I usually put in between 400-500 rounds of FMJ through a pistol the first day out to get a feel for it and see if it will have an issue with ball ammo. Then toss in 50 rounds of my carry ammo to see if it hangs up.

That being said… still love my shield 9mm for carry. And my G19 for home defense. Love my Sig Sauer P220 too…. ahhh the choices.

 

[GunnyGene]

Let's say you want to be 99% confident that the percent of failures (LTPD) in a lot of say 10,000 bullets will be less than 0.92 percent. You would have to shoot 500 of them and have zero failures to reach that level of confidence. And so on as the chart below shows. And this does not say anything about how well the gun 'likes' that particular brand and style. If you are willing to settle for a lower confidence level (say 95%, or 90%) then you can use a smaller sample to obtain a similar LTPD. If you are willing to accept 1 or more fails in your sample, that will also change the result.

You can play with this here : http://www.maximintegrated.com/design/tools/calculators/general-engineering/ltpd.cfm

 

[oli700]

One magazine full of each different design of factory ammo through every available magazine used in the weapon.

Factory ammo is not going to change in size of overall length, caliber or projectile design for a given offering unless something drastic happened at the factory, sometimes but very very rare.

Your firearm is not going to change or go out of spec for a long long time, it will remain the same as well.

Why would you need to waste money shooting through nice defensive ammunition to prove you can trust a fully functional weapon once you have successfully fed , shot and ejected said ammo in every mag , each full ?

I also don’t put much stock in breaking in a firearm. I believe ones with a lot of moving parts settle and wear into themselves but if you buy a firearm that doesn’t work out of the box and work right until it gets past some “workmanship” issues then you are investing your life on a poor choice.

Now reloads are an entire different animal….can make a sound firearm experience every malfunction under the sun……if and when I have a malfunction I always look at ammo before the weapon

I think shooting many rounds is more beneficial for building trust in the shooter, not the firearm

I would have marked "other" if you provided the option.....

 

[ohiomossyoak]

Call me crazy(an maybe 'wrong') but I have more initial confidence in certain brands,makes or models over others.A couple 100 rounds of FMJ and around 50 or so flawless rounds of defense ammo through a brand new glock an I would most likley trust it ..Some others makes an model may take more rounds down range for me to trust them..

 

[nitesite]

Call me crazy(an maybe 'wrong') but I have more initial confidence in certain brands,makes or models over others.A couple 100 rounds of FMJ and around 50 or so flawless rounds of defense ammo through a brand new glock an I would most likley trust it ..Some others makes an model may take more rounds down range for me to trust them..

^ THIS

I don't think you are crazy or wrong in the slightest.

I'd take a brand new in box GLOCK pistol out of its case, shoot a box of practice ammo and a magazine of carry ammo, lightly lube it and call it good.

 

[oli700]

yeah but it depends on the shooter as well, I have seen a couple of people cause my 29 fail to feed from limp wristing, so while the pistol and ammo are sound the shooter is causing a condition that may be blamed on the gun or ammo.

 

[LAZY EYED SNIPER]

Why would you need to waste money shooting through nice defensive ammunition to prove you can trust a fully functional weapon once you have successfully fed , shot and ejected said ammo in every mag , each full ?

That's a good call on the mags oli.

I'm usually more concerned about magazine reliability than I am with the firearm itself. An out of spec mag can turn a perfectly reliable firearm into a single shot jam-o-matic. I always mark my mags and only the ones that run smooth get carried. The rest fight for space in the range bag...

 

[nitesite]

yeah but it depends on the shooter as well, I have seen a couple of people cause my 29 fail to feed from limp wristing, so while the pistol and ammo are sound the shooter is causing a condition that may be blamed on the gun or ammo.

Very fair statement. Good wisdom there.

 

[oli700]

Very fair statement. Good wisdom there.

just say'n,
OT but I officially shot the G29 as well as the CZ last weekend. 75 foot head shots on those life size silhouettes....B29?....I got a stack of those for super cheep and made 3 target stands for them, pretty fun transitioning between rifle and pistol with them at staggered yards.......also doing 20 foot drills from CC with the 29 and shooting from the waist, off the draw, double taps, no laser and didn't miss one, both rounds center mass every time.......you would be proud. Also found 3 cow skulls and dropped some jaws as the 180gr XTP Blue Dot loads straight up exploded them, no ones pistol could even come close to the damage.

That's a good call on the mags oli.
I'm usually more concerned about magazine reliability than I am with the firearm itself. An out of spec mag can turn a perfectly reliable firearm into a single shot jam-o-matic. I always mark my mags and only the ones that run smooth get carried. The rest fight for space in the range bag...

That's my biggest concern as well. I have 300 rounds in AR mags I don't touch and I have another 6 GI and 2 L5 mags I practice with so they are always getting released to the ground on mag change drills, I inspect them a lot but so far so good......Glock and CZ mags get the same treatment and are holding up well.
On the other hand I have bought some Mini 14 mags and seen partners with AR pro mags that did nothing but fail straight from the box.


Anyway like 1000 rounds should do it Tom lol

 

[nitesite]

Yeah, Tom. As long as it's your premium cary ammo exclusively I think 1,000 rounds ought to build one's confidence..... <grin>

Oli, you know that I'm proud of you! Great to hear that the 29 is doing as well as you hoped. That's a huge amount of power to unleash, isn't it?

 

[oli700]

That's a huge amount of power to unleash, isn't it?

it is exhilarating !....I shot a pals 357mag at the end of the session and it feels like 38 special wad cutter compared to a real 10mm load.....I got to say I have never had to work so hard to shoot any firearm well as I had to work at the 29 but it has been well worth it, my confidence it through the roof with it

 

[LAZY EYED SNIPER]

That's great oli!

I'm glad you and the 29 are getting along better now...

 

[Tyler]

my $0.02

shoot 300 rounds (minimum) over a couple of consecutive days with using least 3 different mags per session to be confident in YOUR use and reliability of the firearm; and be confident in POA vs POI. (I like to use clay pigeons or russet potatoes) Once I was very comfortable with the sidearm mix 15 or so snap caps with a box of ammo in a bowl and load your 3 mags while looking down range. This helps with flinching and practicing some failures you might run in to. Strip the gun and clean it at the range, dance another mag thru it and call it a day.

I save those Extremely MASSIVE ash trays for hunting and not the carry gun. My preference is Hornady critical defense. My winter carry (Star PD) wont feed anything but FMJ and critical defense. I lost track of the round count that I put thru the gun. its over 1800 rounds and 400rnds is critical defense the rest is Winchester white box. Ive had 1 FTF due to a bad primer. I practice with my carry every chance I get, or im just cleaning the lint out of it every 2 weeks.

 

[Elucase]

I've only had issue with the cheap rounds (ie tulamo). But if you buy cheap, you get cheap.

Being said I have a very little experience with ammo failing to fire. Usually when it does I can find a reason, ie user error. I avoid cheap ammo and learn to react to a FTF.

Just my $0.02.

 

[dieselmudder]

Ive never had a single problem with wolf, be it 9mm .45, or .223. In any firearm. Well into the thousand round range.