Birdshot Mossberg 500 or .38 special for HD?
- Thread starter honkey
- Start date
bubba in c.a.
.270 WIN
First, overpenetraton is not my primary concern, but it is a secondary issue.
I`ve been doing some reading and thinking. It seems that the copper plating on the pellets that helps keep a tighter pattern by not letting the pellets deform in the gun also makes it penetrate more. Starting to think at room distance that cheaper ammo without copper plating might be better. At room distances, pattern size is not an issue, so 132LE ammos tight patterns a longer distances are a non-issue in the house.
Also, have been reading up on slugs. Some are soft, some are hard. At room distances, it seems the soft ones might be better.
Anyway, as i use up my current ammo in practice, I`m going to experiment with cheaper, locally available stuff at my likely distances of under 5 meters. More used TV boxes are going to die in the name of patterning!
I`ve been doing some reading and thinking. It seems that the copper plating on the pellets that helps keep a tighter pattern by not letting the pellets deform in the gun also makes it penetrate more. Starting to think at room distance that cheaper ammo without copper plating might be better. At room distances, pattern size is not an issue, so 132LE ammos tight patterns a longer distances are a non-issue in the house.
Also, have been reading up on slugs. Some are soft, some are hard. At room distances, it seems the soft ones might be better.
Anyway, as i use up my current ammo in practice, I`m going to experiment with cheaper, locally available stuff at my likely distances of under 5 meters. More used TV boxes are going to die in the name of patterning!
Bubba, I agree with you on selecting the right load.
Some cheaper loads like Winchester Super X are gonna work just fine at typical HD/SD ranges. Its possible to put every pellet on target at 5 to 7 yards. Their inexpensive and readily available. Theyre also softer than something like the Federal Tac LE13200.
Most importantly, there is no surogate for practice and patterning on your own!
Those TV boxes are gonna bite it!
Some cheaper loads like Winchester Super X are gonna work just fine at typical HD/SD ranges. Its possible to put every pellet on target at 5 to 7 yards. Their inexpensive and readily available. Theyre also softer than something like the Federal Tac LE13200.
Most importantly, there is no surogate for practice and patterning on your own!
Those TV boxes are gonna bite it!
m24shooter
.270 WIN
A few points.
Two things are neccessary for stopping an attack when the aggressor does not want to stop: rapid exsanguination and shutting down the CNS. In order to do either one, you need something that is going to penetrate deep enough one time to get through heavy bone and intervening anatomy. The major vessels and the CNS are well protected. The FBI minimum standard for penetration is 12" in calibrated ballistic gel. That standard has been supported through research of actual shootings and post mortem examinations. It is a minimum standard.
No birdshot reaches that penetration depth. Some buckshot doesn't.
Plan accordingly.
Glasers don't work. Look at some of the testing by people that get paid to study terminal ballistics, that are peer reviewed, and accepted as SMEs. They don't recommend Glasers.
Birdshot, or more accurately BS, is not a reliable fight stopper. Should, may, might, and ought to are not criteria that I think hold merit when I'm defending my life or someone else's. I've seen several BS shootings in which the attack continued after the first shot, and one that continued after several. I know of two OIS in which officers were shot in the head/face and continued to fight, including one that chased the turd for several blocks.
LL are typically a bad idea. You open yourself up to all kinds of liability if you have not been properly trained in its use. LL is backed up with lethal rounds when it is deployed, and that's with reason.
Magnum turkey loads generate a lot of recoil. Not a good thing when you may need to make quick follow up shots. Another consideration is muzzle blast.
Using the argument that because somebody wouldn't want to get shot/stabbed/hit with something is flawed. I don't want to get stabbed with a pencil but that does not mean that a pencil is a good defensive weapon. If it is all you have fine, but if there are other options then it loses merit.
There are better options in .38 than Nyclads. Lots better.
If your plan for using BS includes hitting the same spot already hit so that your projos go deeper, that is idealistic and not something I would even consider. Not on a two way range with a potentially moving target in the dark that gets to shoot back and has a say in how things go. I don't see this as a reliable circumstance.
Tightened chokes with BS just means that you will have more shallow penetrations in a tighter area. If the area impacted still has the major vessels and CNS structures under a lot of protective anatomy you aren't any better off.
Bubba, you're exactly right. The plating not only reduces deformation in the bore it also increases penetration. That's a known factor.
Anything that is going to reliably stop an aggressor will penetrate drywall.
The trade off is going to be what you as an individual are comfortable with. Be aware of your target and what is behind it. Position yourself where you minimize downrange hazards if possible. At work or at home, I'm not going with less than 00. The new 1B load from Federal will go a long, long way towards reducing downrange hazards once it becomes more widely available due to the smaller shot size.
Two things are neccessary for stopping an attack when the aggressor does not want to stop: rapid exsanguination and shutting down the CNS. In order to do either one, you need something that is going to penetrate deep enough one time to get through heavy bone and intervening anatomy. The major vessels and the CNS are well protected. The FBI minimum standard for penetration is 12" in calibrated ballistic gel. That standard has been supported through research of actual shootings and post mortem examinations. It is a minimum standard.
No birdshot reaches that penetration depth. Some buckshot doesn't.
Plan accordingly.
Glasers don't work. Look at some of the testing by people that get paid to study terminal ballistics, that are peer reviewed, and accepted as SMEs. They don't recommend Glasers.
Birdshot, or more accurately BS, is not a reliable fight stopper. Should, may, might, and ought to are not criteria that I think hold merit when I'm defending my life or someone else's. I've seen several BS shootings in which the attack continued after the first shot, and one that continued after several. I know of two OIS in which officers were shot in the head/face and continued to fight, including one that chased the turd for several blocks.
LL are typically a bad idea. You open yourself up to all kinds of liability if you have not been properly trained in its use. LL is backed up with lethal rounds when it is deployed, and that's with reason.
Magnum turkey loads generate a lot of recoil. Not a good thing when you may need to make quick follow up shots. Another consideration is muzzle blast.
Using the argument that because somebody wouldn't want to get shot/stabbed/hit with something is flawed. I don't want to get stabbed with a pencil but that does not mean that a pencil is a good defensive weapon. If it is all you have fine, but if there are other options then it loses merit.
There are better options in .38 than Nyclads. Lots better.
If your plan for using BS includes hitting the same spot already hit so that your projos go deeper, that is idealistic and not something I would even consider. Not on a two way range with a potentially moving target in the dark that gets to shoot back and has a say in how things go. I don't see this as a reliable circumstance.
Tightened chokes with BS just means that you will have more shallow penetrations in a tighter area. If the area impacted still has the major vessels and CNS structures under a lot of protective anatomy you aren't any better off.
Bubba, you're exactly right. The plating not only reduces deformation in the bore it also increases penetration. That's a known factor.
Anything that is going to reliably stop an aggressor will penetrate drywall.
The trade off is going to be what you as an individual are comfortable with. Be aware of your target and what is behind it. Position yourself where you minimize downrange hazards if possible. At work or at home, I'm not going with less than 00. The new 1B load from Federal will go a long, long way towards reducing downrange hazards once it becomes more widely available due to the smaller shot size.
Kodiak
.270 WIN
Without getting into the legal merits, such as what a prosecuting attorney might say, I've seen a guy that makes slugs out of BS shells. There is also a vid titled "cut shell vs ballistics gel". I did not post it due to F-bombs in it.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3M46XVfVOU[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3M46XVfVOU[/youtube]
M24, I actually totally agree with your post.
The points you mention about "if, maybe, might... " I feel the same. I advocate using what you have if its all you have.
But I pattern test what I do because its what I would trust my life to.
As always, your insight and professional experience is appreciated.
The points you mention about "if, maybe, might... " I feel the same. I advocate using what you have if its all you have.
But I pattern test what I do because its what I would trust my life to.
As always, your insight and professional experience is appreciated.
Tom396
.30-06
Kodiak, this one has no F-bombs. In fact, it apparently has no audio at all:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGwGI0IM ... 8Q&index=1
Take care. Tom Worthington.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGwGI0IM ... 8Q&index=1
Take care. Tom Worthington.
petecamp
Copper BB
Op....The correct answer to your question is first and foremost, practice until you can hit your target center of mass each and every time - in other words, don't miss. Far too many people worry far too much about overpenetration. If it was such a huge problem, we would see many more reports of it than we do. Overpenetration is a round exiting the intended target and engaging an unintended one. Any round sufficiently effective to stop the BG is sufficiently active to potentially penetrate to unintended targets behind him, albeit at greatly reduced energy and velocity levels.
The real problem, frequently documented, is missing the target completely. One of two bad things happen: the person shooting fails to stop the BG and gets killed, along with the family. Or, the shooter misses completely and all the projectiles continue downrange at full velocity and he hits someone or something he didn't intend to hit. Both are much more likely (and consequently we see it far more in real life) than overpenetration.
My opinion? Buy a LOT of birdshot and practice, practice, practice. Then load the shotgun with 00 buckshot. Federal LE132 with Flitecontrol works great, but get several brands. Pattern it to determine which load gives you the smallest pattern at your working distances.
Second, get some good .38 Special short barrel loads - Gold Dot is arguably the best, but there are other good loadings for short barrel revolvers. Practice with your .38 until you can reliably place all your rounds center of mass.
Last, pray you never have need of either one.
The real problem, frequently documented, is missing the target completely. One of two bad things happen: the person shooting fails to stop the BG and gets killed, along with the family. Or, the shooter misses completely and all the projectiles continue downrange at full velocity and he hits someone or something he didn't intend to hit. Both are much more likely (and consequently we see it far more in real life) than overpenetration.
My opinion? Buy a LOT of birdshot and practice, practice, practice. Then load the shotgun with 00 buckshot. Federal LE132 with Flitecontrol works great, but get several brands. Pattern it to determine which load gives you the smallest pattern at your working distances.
Second, get some good .38 Special short barrel loads - Gold Dot is arguably the best, but there are other good loadings for short barrel revolvers. Practice with your .38 until you can reliably place all your rounds center of mass.
Last, pray you never have need of either one.
Texas_Made
.410
I would choose the .38spl for defending myself over birdshot from my 12 gauge. Birdshot is for birds.
The spread of the birdshot and the tiny BBs wouldn't Penetrate deep enough to reliably stop the fight.
I'm no expert but I believe The .38 and lots of practice would be a better defense IMO
The spread of the birdshot and the tiny BBs wouldn't Penetrate deep enough to reliably stop the fight.
I'm no expert but I believe The .38 and lots of practice would be a better defense IMO
You do know that birdshot can and will penetrate walls correct?
So if you don't want a bullet to pass through your walls, you will want a BB gun or something because almost all modern gun rounds I am aware of have no problem whatsoever penetrating multiple layers of sheetrock and insulation and paneling and the likes.
So if you don't want a bullet to pass through your walls, you will want a BB gun or something because almost all modern gun rounds I am aware of have no problem whatsoever penetrating multiple layers of sheetrock and insulation and paneling and the likes.
I agree fellas.
The only time I've ever advocated birdshot for HD/SD is in the absence of anything else... Heck, my wifes step mom however still grabs an old Stevens 16 ga. single shot and whatever bird or BB load she has on hand for whatever gets her outta bed at the farm. Most recently a fox gettin in the chicken pens. One shot to the face dispatched it. But it was a fox...
Birdshot might work, but I'll always encourage gettin out with some 00. Even something like Winchester Super X will work and pattern well enough to put every pellet on target at close ranges, 5 to 7 yards max in my experience, and is easily found at WalMart.
You can check places like Cabellas, Dicks Sporting Goods, Bass Pro, and the like for stuff like Hornady Critical Defense (a low recoil 8 pellet 00 with the VersaTite wad) and Federal PD132 00 with FliteControl. The VersaTite and FliteControl are the same proprietary wad developed by Federal Premium and used under liscense by Hornady.
The only time I've ever advocated birdshot for HD/SD is in the absence of anything else... Heck, my wifes step mom however still grabs an old Stevens 16 ga. single shot and whatever bird or BB load she has on hand for whatever gets her outta bed at the farm. Most recently a fox gettin in the chicken pens. One shot to the face dispatched it. But it was a fox...
Birdshot might work, but I'll always encourage gettin out with some 00. Even something like Winchester Super X will work and pattern well enough to put every pellet on target at close ranges, 5 to 7 yards max in my experience, and is easily found at WalMart.
You can check places like Cabellas, Dicks Sporting Goods, Bass Pro, and the like for stuff like Hornady Critical Defense (a low recoil 8 pellet 00 with the VersaTite wad) and Federal PD132 00 with FliteControl. The VersaTite and FliteControl are the same proprietary wad developed by Federal Premium and used under liscense by Hornady.
Texas_Made
.410
John A. said:
That is correct. a couple of walls. Buckshot will go thru about twice as many walls as the birdshot. However we don't shoot at walls for breaking into our home.