hombre243
.30-06
I figure if it comes from Rock River Arms it is accurate enough. Find a better one and go for it. I grabbed on to the first explanation I found.
Lone Wolf range report
- Thread starter CaddmannQ
- Start date
if you don't like the AR platform a barrel change isn't going to change your opinion......as you have noted by shooting a Grendel .
If a Grendel isnt impressing you a Wylde chamber will do nothing for you. In fact unless you are shooting your current barrel to its full potential(your not) then you will see 0 change at the range with a Wylde chamber
get rid of it, get yourself a Garand
If a Grendel isnt impressing you a Wylde chamber will do nothing for you. In fact unless you are shooting your current barrel to its full potential(your not) then you will see 0 change at the range with a Wylde chamber
get rid of it, get yourself a Garand
hombre243
.30-06
Isn't a Wylde chamber's best quality that is allows both 5.56 and .223 ammunition to be fired in the same rifle without the pressure issues caused by firing a 5.56 in a .223? I have not done much study on a Wylde chamber so I am only parroting what I have heard, and as i understand it. Wylde is not a different platform, just a chamber/throat enlargement, right?
I have a MVP in 5.56 and it likes both equally. I got it because it is a 5.56. T chose a 5.56 because it fires the .223 safely, whereas the .223 is said (controversially) to be less safe when firing a 5.56. I have heard both sides of that argument, so in order to eliminate the guessing, I got a 5.56.
I would like to know, what is the advantage of a Wylde chambering, as long as there are 5.56 chamberings? Doesn't a 5.56 cover the bases?
I don't know whether I would like an AR platform or not. I have only fired a couple different ones. But, like everything else, I have to dip my toe into the water before I will know. If I cannot get to the "love it and shoot it well" stage, I will just sell it. I have always been a bolt rifle and a pump shotgun kind of guy. I am not settled into the lever gun platform yet but I am workin on it. If it does not work out after tedious experimentation, I will give it up. Yes it gets expensive buying and then selling at a loss but that is just one of the costs of playing the game.
The biggest difference between a .223 and a 5.56 NATO loading is that the bullet size in a .223 is usually under 70 grains and the NATO round bullet is above 70 gr., thus higher pressures/high velocity which is why there is so much controversy in firing a 5.56 in a .223 chamber. The 5.56 needs a little more throat area. (oh, I know the case capacity of a 5.56 case is less than .223, so higher pressures are generated because of that also)
Thanks for your help.
h
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your right on the money
the Wylde allows some accuracy retention when shooting the variety available. It has a shorter leade in the chamber putting the projo closer to the lands
it also allows 556 pressure ammo to safely be fired because the leade is long enough to still relieve 556 pressure and avoid a spike when the brass seals the chamber and the projectile seals the bore .
I can shoot MOA with my 18" 556 chamber
most people dont have the shooting fundamentals to really tell or benefit from a Wylde
I think if an above average shooter can not get more accuracy and realods then he might benefit from a Wylde chamber.
by this philosophy 223 Remington chambered AR will be the most accurate......potentially all else being equal
the Wylde allows some accuracy retention when shooting the variety available. It has a shorter leade in the chamber putting the projo closer to the lands
it also allows 556 pressure ammo to safely be fired because the leade is long enough to still relieve 556 pressure and avoid a spike when the brass seals the chamber and the projectile seals the bore .
I can shoot MOA with my 18" 556 chamber
most people dont have the shooting fundamentals to really tell or benefit from a Wylde
I think if an above average shooter can not get more accuracy and realods then he might benefit from a Wylde chamber.
by this philosophy 223 Remington chambered AR will be the most accurate......potentially all else being equal
I was under the impression that to get the best from .223 Wylde that you needed to load special rounds specifically for that chamber. That factory ammo in a Wylde would give no real advantage.
My AR is supposed to have an AR Stoner upper in 5.56 from Midway. It was inexpnsive. Hell the AR was only $600. . . 50% cheaper than my .357 Henry.
I have shot 5.56 and .223 but don't have any comparisons where I shot both at the same time & I don't have any good feeling for the difference.
I had the same problems as mine with the Grendel. The sliding buttstock made a good cheekweld difficult. I hit the 7" target from 200yds with it, but no consistency.
With mine I'll put 2 within 1 MOA, then the 3rd flies off. My targets seem to always come out like this:
My AR is supposed to have an AR Stoner upper in 5.56 from Midway. It was inexpnsive. Hell the AR was only $600. . . 50% cheaper than my .357 Henry.
I have shot 5.56 and .223 but don't have any comparisons where I shot both at the same time & I don't have any good feeling for the difference.
I had the same problems as mine with the Grendel. The sliding buttstock made a good cheekweld difficult. I hit the 7" target from 200yds with it, but no consistency.
With mine I'll put 2 within 1 MOA, then the 3rd flies off. My targets seem to always come out like this:
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hombre243
.30-06
Top and bottom targets are the same.
hombre243
.30-06
Too bad you don't hunt. Those would be kill shots. The 30-30 was as good as the others.
Guess what I was gathering was that he wasn't shooting well because he wasn't comfortable with the ergonomics. And those are easily changed on the AR Platform. I love shooting mine prone. Guess I don't want to see the platform given up on when it's so easily modified to fit different styles.
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hombre243
.30-06
You are probably right. I am finding that I am shooting a lot of ammo and not liking the results. Maybe I should change my shooting position, rest height, where I rest the forend on the rest...all the stuff I am not remembering to do consistently when I go to the range. I only seem to remember I changed something for a couple shots...after i get home whining about my rotten gun that won't shoot worth a...you know. None of my other rifles are of this style. They are beefy stocks and heavy...about 3 lbs heavier...without the scopes.
They are not so picky about the placement, but then again, I have shot those types of rifles so long I kind of have a feel for proper or nearly proper position that it comes naturally.
This little canoe paddle of a lever gun needs to be handled differently...but I think I just forget to practice different positions, thus, I cannot get a better group.
All the videos i watch show a rifle recoiling straight back. My rifle jumps and twists like a saddle bronc. I have to try to tame that hoss or I will never shoot it well.
It may look like the recoil is straight back, but all rifles are also torqued on firing. Your description of the gun as a "canoe paddle" probably explains your awareness of the twist. When you pull the trigger and send the bullet forward the gun gets pushed back at you. The bullet is spun to the right and the gun twists to the left. The lighter the gun the more push and twist against you. [See Newton, Isaac.]
The lighter the gun the more Uncle Ike is going to mess with you.
hombre243
.30-06
It certainly is a light rifle. It seems to twist right though. Maybe the barrel is backwards. It shoots awful loud.It may look like the recoil is straight back, but all rifles are also torqued on firing. Your description of the gun as a "canoe paddle" probably explains your awareness of the twist. When you pull the trigger and send the bullet forward the gun gets pushed back at you. The bullet is spun to the right and the gun twists to the left. The lighter the gun the more push and twist against you. [See Newton, Isaac.]
The lighter the gun the more Uncle Ike is going to mess with you.
What I was saying about jumping and torquing...there is a lot of muzzle rise and it is visible, whereas the videos do not show that much rise. I was wondering if it is just that I am not on the rest properly. (I cannot just blame the rifle) (action/reaction...yep, I know) All the videos that show someone shooting at the bench are shot from a high position so seeing how upright the shooter is sitting is a guess.
The lighter the rifle the more finicky it can become. As you mentioned, light rifle = more felt recoil, but also more visible reaction to the ignition. I always feel cramped down trying to get the muzzle up to the target. Our target butts are about 7 feet tall and are made with a 4x4 face of pressed wood. Bottom of the board is about 3' off the ground. From the bench if the rifle is level I am aiming almost at the ground at 50 yards. I have to scrunch down to get the muzzle up and that puts the rifle in a weird position on my shoulder. Can THAT cause muzzle jump? I just cannot seem to find a taller rest that is light enough to carry the distance I have to tote my junk at the range.
Apparently I will need to carry along some kind of riser to get the rifle up higher. Looks like it is back to carrying a toolbox and soft bag...
Sorry, Hombre. I was just talking pure physics and internal ballistics. I don't know exactly how your rifle is configured. You should be able to get some reproducible results w/ appropriate support. But hitting the same hole depends upon mucho factors. The more info we have the more likely we'll be able to help you out. We can lick this.
hombre243
.30-06
Well, I either have a bad gun or there is a Me thing going on. I have tried several powders and loads and none are really consistent, except consistently unpredictable. That is why I am wondering about the way I rest the rifle. It is much lighter than any of my others, except the 22 lr's. I have no problem with any of my bolt guns. So, I just figured that trying to shoot a saddle gun from a rest must be a whole different animule.
I remember now what I wanted to mention...Problem 1 is: I am cramped down low trying to see through the scope. And now that I think about it, the bench at the range is a one size fits most...except me...height. I think it is too high so I have to scrunch down and almost flatten out on the bench top, which is problem 2. If the seat is too high, then i also need a taller rest so i can sit more upright in a more relaxed position.
I am not sure how much taller it needs to be but the top of a Gorilla bag is not high enough as the toe of the butt is almost on the table. I think I will see if I can get a bag of some kind and fill it with corn cob media and set the rest bag on top of that. I am already loaded down so it has to be light. Maybe if I get a 2x6 and make a perch for the bag. ( I now have a RCBS bag similar to the Gorilla bag. It is 1/3 the weight).
I remember now what I wanted to mention...Problem 1 is: I am cramped down low trying to see through the scope. And now that I think about it, the bench at the range is a one size fits most...except me...height. I think it is too high so I have to scrunch down and almost flatten out on the bench top, which is problem 2. If the seat is too high, then i also need a taller rest so i can sit more upright in a more relaxed position.
I am not sure how much taller it needs to be but the top of a Gorilla bag is not high enough as the toe of the butt is almost on the table. I think I will see if I can get a bag of some kind and fill it with corn cob media and set the rest bag on top of that. I am already loaded down so it has to be light. Maybe if I get a 2x6 and make a perch for the bag. ( I now have a RCBS bag similar to the Gorilla bag. It is 1/3 the weight).
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I would suggest your starting point should be w/ COMMERCIAL ammo, moderate range [25-50 yds], bench support. Sight mount, aligned and tight. Take out as many variables as you can to start.
Could you post a pic of this gun?
hombre243
.30-06
I started with commercial ammo then fired some handloads. Started out with a lot of stringing. Then i polished the bore and cleaned out all the factory goop I could find in the receiver. I scoped the bore...completely spotless. I always start at 50 yards. I collimated the scope then dialed it is best I could last time out. The scope is holding its settings.
There is a different cheek pad on it now, and the butt pad is gone...but no new pics.
hombre243
.30-06
http://mossbergowners.com/forum/ind...oads-and-the-state-of-the-economy.9218/page-9Well, what you said above is exactly what I would have passed along to you as good advice. I'm going into my "hmmmmmm" mode for a while.
.........
Playing for time right now... Target pix?
Here is Hombre's photo full-sized:
See post 174 and 108, (108 illustrates the actual balance point as the rifle comes from the factory and all gussied up with the scope and other accessories)
http://www.mossbergowners.com/forum/index.php?threads/464-30-30-loads.14269/page-4
Post78 is a typical group on the top of the target, then, using Xtreme plated bullets, last group of the day, I fired a group I will try to duplicate.All the way at the bottom of the main target is a 6 shot group in the little spot bull I pasted on the bottom ring. That is what I am trying for but have not been able to do with jacketed bullets.
The most accurate rifle I have and I built it: http://www.mossbergowners.com/forum/index.php?threads/i-just-joined-the-club.15461/page-3
And Post 61: http://www.mossbergowners.com/forum/index.php?threads/i-just-joined-the-club.15461/page-4
Post 73 is the very first group with the rifle. After that...it all went south: http://www.mossbergowners.com/forum/index.php?threads/i-just-joined-the-club.15461/page-4
I think these are the latest pics I have.
http://www.mossbergowners.com/forum/index.php?threads/i-just-joined-the-club.15461/page-5
I found the newest targets but they are not scanned in yet...soon though and I will post them here.
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Thanx, that was a help. I just spent the last 30 minutes reading thru your previous posts.
Full disclosure here: I am not a very good rifleman. I do not do any reloading. My approach is more from the mechanical, scientific, theoretical, method. You have much more knowledge about the practical side of this problem than I do.
That said, after noodling all evening on this, I predict.... Ta DA!
Scope interior - loose glass or reticle.
Full disclosure here: I am not a very good rifleman. I do not do any reloading. My approach is more from the mechanical, scientific, theoretical, method. You have much more knowledge about the practical side of this problem than I do.
That said, after noodling all evening on this, I predict.... Ta DA!
Scope interior - loose glass or reticle.
Thanks Hombre, but I'm too creaky.
Just because I can do that from sandbags on a solid cast concrete bench doesn't mean I could do it off a rock after hiking through the woods all day.
Now if I just sat in a blind all day waiting for game, maybe; but that's not much like hunting.
On the other hand, with my eyesight I'd be lucky to spot a deer at all at 100 yds.