Need advice
- Thread starter Vinny
- Start date
Shotguns are a point and shoot weapon. You don't need to aim it like a rifle unless you're shooting slugs. But I'm sure some folks put one on anyway. Your call.
Joseph Mosser
.22LR
Laser pointers aren't useless, but as Ohio said, a shotgun is a point and shoot weapon, so pin point accuracy isn't a need. But in low light, a flashlight is a must and a laser will be invaluable as long as you can first see your target (the laser assists aim, not vision, hence why a light is first priority). One good laser/light I've seen is the Viridian X5L-RS. It has a green laser which means you will be able to use it day or night. Red lasers fade in daylight.
One problem with combos is, if you use both light and laser at the same time, it's a battery hog. And trying to make an affordable combo means it doesn't have as large a battery life as separate light and lasers would. The one I mentioned has a 1 hr runtime with light and laser continuously on. MSRP is $409, but retail should be less. So, all in all a great option, but I personally would use a combo on a pistol and mount separate laser and light on my long gun. You could also try the Laserlyte Center Mass which comes on some 500s from the factory now. Kinda neat but is a red laser so issues there. And it is strictly short range as it isn't a single beam; kind of a HD thing. Especially if you go with a separate laser and light, you're gonna need a good rail. The Black Aces Tactical Quad Rail is the best in my opinion. Sure it looks unorthodox, but you have the rail area for a shotty that normally only AR rifles have. Perfect for mounting multiple gadgets. Best place to get is the Sportsmans Guide; they discontinued it for Mossy 500, though. Damn shame. They sold it for $71 and everyone else sells it for $140. SG still sells a lot of gun goodies so check them out anyway. But you can find the quad rail here: http://www.vortexdefense.com/Mossberg-500-590-590A1-Tactical-Rail-p/rb7m.htm for $144.99. Hope this helps! Enjoy your 500! Don't let old mossy know you have one because he'll order you to upload pics; lotta gun porn addicts around here.
One problem with combos is, if you use both light and laser at the same time, it's a battery hog. And trying to make an affordable combo means it doesn't have as large a battery life as separate light and lasers would. The one I mentioned has a 1 hr runtime with light and laser continuously on. MSRP is $409, but retail should be less. So, all in all a great option, but I personally would use a combo on a pistol and mount separate laser and light on my long gun. You could also try the Laserlyte Center Mass which comes on some 500s from the factory now. Kinda neat but is a red laser so issues there. And it is strictly short range as it isn't a single beam; kind of a HD thing. Especially if you go with a separate laser and light, you're gonna need a good rail. The Black Aces Tactical Quad Rail is the best in my opinion. Sure it looks unorthodox, but you have the rail area for a shotty that normally only AR rifles have. Perfect for mounting multiple gadgets. Best place to get is the Sportsmans Guide; they discontinued it for Mossy 500, though. Damn shame. They sold it for $71 and everyone else sells it for $140. SG still sells a lot of gun goodies so check them out anyway. But you can find the quad rail here: http://www.vortexdefense.com/Mossberg-500-590-590A1-Tactical-Rail-p/rb7m.htm for $144.99. Hope this helps! Enjoy your 500! Don't let old mossy know you have one because he'll order you to upload pics; lotta gun porn addicts around here.
Any shaking, vibration, etc will be amplified in the laser. Most people are not aware of how unsteady they hold a gun until they mount a laser, it can be unnerving if you do not expect it and learn to work with it.
Similar to lights lasers can work both ways if a bad guy see's your beam or red emanating from the front of the laser, your position is compromised.
Lasers also do not work through obstructions that you may want to shoot through, remember there is little to nothing in a house that will provide hard cover and the need may arise to shoot through something and the laser might not provide adequate assistance ion this situation.
That said, they have their place, esp if you see yourself shooting offhand positions where conventional aiming is not possible. They can enhance your abilities if you already have some skill but they are not a replacement for practice. Personally I don't see the need for one on a shotgun and I do not have one on any of my guns. Note they are also illegal for hunting in most places if they is a concern.
If you want to try one, test it out before you commit. Everyone has different needs and wants.
Similar to lights lasers can work both ways if a bad guy see's your beam or red emanating from the front of the laser, your position is compromised.
Lasers also do not work through obstructions that you may want to shoot through, remember there is little to nothing in a house that will provide hard cover and the need may arise to shoot through something and the laser might not provide adequate assistance ion this situation.
That said, they have their place, esp if you see yourself shooting offhand positions where conventional aiming is not possible. They can enhance your abilities if you already have some skill but they are not a replacement for practice. Personally I don't see the need for one on a shotgun and I do not have one on any of my guns. Note they are also illegal for hunting in most places if they is a concern.
If you want to try one, test it out before you commit. Everyone has different needs and wants.
Twelve Pump
.270 WIN
I'm with OhioArcher and generally a minimalist, especially with weapons. Every enhancement can potentially be a plus, but in the end it can also detract from the actual purpose of the tool, slowing you down and/or compromising its reliability and handiness. And anything that's battery-run is a turn-off to me. We focus too easily on the hardware in the US and spend money on gadgets before even practicing. We all do this to an extent.
Now while I personally stay away from sighting aids with handguns (it's a philosophy and not for everybody), for a long gun I still recommend a light because ID'ing targets is a must and handling a light that's not mounted is just not feasible with a long gun. I didn't want to get the ones integrated in the forend for both cost and bulkiness reasons. Instead I use simple mounts on the mag tube and tactical lights that I can activate with my weak hand without it leaving the forend. I trust SureFires, but any quality one would do as long as it has an instant-on switch. And I love the simple and rugged design of the L&M mount, but it can be hard to find.
Lasers, I personally don't believe in unless they're used as training aids with small handguns that are typically hard to hit with (shotguns are very easy to hit with even and especially with beads). And I still think that they're a bandaid to replace practice. Some very competent people swear by them, though.
The above is my opinion, of course, and it's far from the most informed, but I believe it's sound. Obviously, I'm a KISS principle convert. All this to say that if you had asked which laser or which light to use, I would've let others contribute because those are not my forte. But the way you phrased you post I'd go ahead say: first buy LOTS of ammo and shoot the hell out of that thing at various of distances until you're really good with it and you know in your bones how it patterns. After that you can look for enhancements and will probably have an idea yourself about what you need.
Now while I personally stay away from sighting aids with handguns (it's a philosophy and not for everybody), for a long gun I still recommend a light because ID'ing targets is a must and handling a light that's not mounted is just not feasible with a long gun. I didn't want to get the ones integrated in the forend for both cost and bulkiness reasons. Instead I use simple mounts on the mag tube and tactical lights that I can activate with my weak hand without it leaving the forend. I trust SureFires, but any quality one would do as long as it has an instant-on switch. And I love the simple and rugged design of the L&M mount, but it can be hard to find.
Lasers, I personally don't believe in unless they're used as training aids with small handguns that are typically hard to hit with (shotguns are very easy to hit with even and especially with beads). And I still think that they're a bandaid to replace practice. Some very competent people swear by them, though.
The above is my opinion, of course, and it's far from the most informed, but I believe it's sound. Obviously, I'm a KISS principle convert. All this to say that if you had asked which laser or which light to use, I would've let others contribute because those are not my forte. But the way you phrased you post I'd go ahead say: first buy LOTS of ammo and shoot the hell out of that thing at various of distances until you're really good with it and you know in your bones how it patterns. After that you can look for enhancements and will probably have an idea yourself about what you need.
S
SHOOTER13
Guest
Gentlemen...I beg to differ...
Shotguns are not point and shoot weapons...and are capable of great accuracy with any load when aimed precisely, especially at distance.
With a spread of 1 inch per 1 yard with pellets...depending on the barrel choke and load used ( be it bird shot or buck )... the chances of a miss are very possible...especially at night when you may be half asleep and under extreme duress.
A high lumen light is an excellent idea for home defense...enabling the defender to identify the target in the dark ( usually a HD situation takes place at night )...even possibly momentarily blinding the perp when applied to wipe his night vision.
Lasers are perfect for the pin point accuracy needed not only in a home defense situation, where a stray pellet(s) could be fatal to innocents...but also at longer ranges where targets may be smaller because of the distance involved. ( LaserLyte Center Mass )
Let the conversation begin:
Shotguns are not point and shoot weapons...and are capable of great accuracy with any load when aimed precisely, especially at distance.
With a spread of 1 inch per 1 yard with pellets...depending on the barrel choke and load used ( be it bird shot or buck )... the chances of a miss are very possible...especially at night when you may be half asleep and under extreme duress.
A high lumen light is an excellent idea for home defense...enabling the defender to identify the target in the dark ( usually a HD situation takes place at night )...even possibly momentarily blinding the perp when applied to wipe his night vision.
Lasers are perfect for the pin point accuracy needed not only in a home defense situation, where a stray pellet(s) could be fatal to innocents...but also at longer ranges where targets may be smaller because of the distance involved. ( LaserLyte Center Mass )
Let the conversation begin:
Twelve Pump
.270 WIN
Shotguns aren't the street sweepers people think and they can be very accurate, that's for sure. Although not capable of that myself I posted a clip elsewhere of someone hitting at 230 yards with slugs, and at typical defensive situations distances aiming will be a must due to the tight spreads. My personal take is only that sighting devices to extract that accuracy are secondary. Not useless, mind you, secondary (for civvies like me). And the payload itself may group tightly, but the wadding's behavior will be erratic so in a home defense situation I certainly don't want to try hostage rescue type shots (see below). So I wouldn't be shooting 'around' bad guys and what I ask from sighting devices is to help locating them in the dark, blinding them and seeing the background.
Very interesting conversation.
I'll begin by disagreeing on this point and tie it into another in a moment.
Firstly;
I have a light mount and light with momentary pressure switch, both made by Coast Products, and a magazine tube clamp made by CDM Gear. I have all this on the 20" Persuader mounted on the support side. Typically all this is actually on the gun, but we have chickens and sometimes hatch eggs and the Coast light is the best I have so it gets used to candle eggs. It hasn't been on the gun in awhile.
Here's the relevant part. I had a critter bothering my chickens a couple months ago. I grabbed the gun and light and headed out the door loading buckshot as I went. I turned the light on and held it between my index and middle finger of my left hand and was able to use my thumb and index finger on the forend.
(You'd be surprised the added flexibility of movement this allows to scan an area)
Here's where I dovetail the story and make a second point;
As for aiming, I keep a Meprolight tritium bead on my gun. No point in having an HD/property gun which may be needed at night if you can't see the bead.
Back to the story,
I'm outside, gun shouldered, light on and scanning the property. I pick up a low set of eyes in the light. We have all the usual suspects out here, any of which will make off with a chicken. I move that tritium bead to the eyes and shoot the target which was about 35 yards or so and I dropped it where it stood. ("accuracy with any load when aimed precisely") just as @SHOOTER13 mentions above.
Moral of the story;
If its to be used at night, yes I believe a light is almost entirely necessary.
At typical HD/SD distances, nearly every load is a precise load, even smaller shot (which I would not use defensively). Only a few loads fall apart and spread over very little range with Winchester SuperX being the worst in that area in my experience with a widening discernible pattern after just 7 yards.
Now I don't believe that when folks here say the shotgun is point and shoot they're implying aiming isn't necessary. I believe that in and HD scenario, say 7 yards or less, if you put the bead on a target, it will be hit, (unless your angle is extremely weird, almost humanly impossible), but certainly you won't get patterns that spread and put a pellet in every square inch of wall space. The load will in fact, in most cases, make a single hole.
A laser for a shotgun... I dunno, I've not ever tried it. My concern is that point of aim and point of impact will be two different thing. Not to say it can't be used as an aid as has been mentioned say if shooting off hand or in a situation where conventional sighting just isn't an option.
Gadgetry though isn't a surrogate for practice, so whatever you go with, just get plenty of ammo and of different makes and models and shoot at varying distances to help you determine what will suit your unique needs.
I'll begin by disagreeing on this point and tie it into another in a moment.
Firstly;
I have a light mount and light with momentary pressure switch, both made by Coast Products, and a magazine tube clamp made by CDM Gear. I have all this on the 20" Persuader mounted on the support side. Typically all this is actually on the gun, but we have chickens and sometimes hatch eggs and the Coast light is the best I have so it gets used to candle eggs. It hasn't been on the gun in awhile.
Here's the relevant part. I had a critter bothering my chickens a couple months ago. I grabbed the gun and light and headed out the door loading buckshot as I went. I turned the light on and held it between my index and middle finger of my left hand and was able to use my thumb and index finger on the forend.
(You'd be surprised the added flexibility of movement this allows to scan an area)
Here's where I dovetail the story and make a second point;
As for aiming, I keep a Meprolight tritium bead on my gun. No point in having an HD/property gun which may be needed at night if you can't see the bead.
Back to the story,
I'm outside, gun shouldered, light on and scanning the property. I pick up a low set of eyes in the light. We have all the usual suspects out here, any of which will make off with a chicken. I move that tritium bead to the eyes and shoot the target which was about 35 yards or so and I dropped it where it stood. ("accuracy with any load when aimed precisely") just as @SHOOTER13 mentions above.
Moral of the story;
If its to be used at night, yes I believe a light is almost entirely necessary.
At typical HD/SD distances, nearly every load is a precise load, even smaller shot (which I would not use defensively). Only a few loads fall apart and spread over very little range with Winchester SuperX being the worst in that area in my experience with a widening discernible pattern after just 7 yards.
Now I don't believe that when folks here say the shotgun is point and shoot they're implying aiming isn't necessary. I believe that in and HD scenario, say 7 yards or less, if you put the bead on a target, it will be hit, (unless your angle is extremely weird, almost humanly impossible), but certainly you won't get patterns that spread and put a pellet in every square inch of wall space. The load will in fact, in most cases, make a single hole.
A laser for a shotgun... I dunno, I've not ever tried it. My concern is that point of aim and point of impact will be two different thing. Not to say it can't be used as an aid as has been mentioned say if shooting off hand or in a situation where conventional sighting just isn't an option.
Gadgetry though isn't a surrogate for practice, so whatever you go with, just get plenty of ammo and of different makes and models and shoot at varying distances to help you determine what will suit your unique needs.
S
SHOOTER13
Guest
Well said sir...
Twelve Pump
.270 WIN
I largely agree with Rossignol's post above, not that I have a level of experience with shotties that matches many of you guys and means anything other than conversation between users. But I think we're all on board with the necessity of a light and of aiming any shotgun with any load beyond point blank range.
Now I think we all set up our guns and decide on our tactics based on the scenarios we envision in our environments and our skill levels, and those all obviously differ. It would've been useful if the OP had been a little more specific, by the way, in order to tailor our responses better to his needs.
But assuming that the threat might be a few thugs instead of a critter, I'd prefer both hands on a 12 gauge, especially a pump. I use various lights all the time with my 1911s and do not want them mounted, which makes me an anomaly, but it's because I can handle a pistol well enough one-handed and as a civvie I don't want handguns to be my light source. Now a long gun with a light in one hand... is of course doable for a few shots, but that would be betting on a dexterity that I don't have, especially if there's reloads on the program. I used to train for tac reloads with a pistol, for example, and ended up dropping this technique(s) altogether for speed reloads at slide lock years ago. Mags held between shaky, sweaty and maybe bloody fingers seem like an unnecessary recipe for fumbles to me and it goes again my overarching KISS mentality. I'll be frank and consider those circus tricks that are designed to keep training schools in business, to be honest, as they change all the time. So if you can pull the un-mounted light off with your Mossberg, my hat's off to ya.
I wouldn't debate anyone on lasers (I never even tried them) or night sights (I find them inconsistent) because I feel I'm in a very small minority and I may be wrong on this. I just don't like the very idea of those, period. Lemme just say that at night I always have at least one light with me and, while not ideal, I'm always able to see bead or front sight when I light up what's downrange. Depending on the placement of the light source, I've even seen front sights become blinding so I prefer them fairly dim, if not black. I have a gold bead on one of my 1911s and it gives me trouble at indoor ranges, to give you an example, way too bright in harsh lighting.
Here's a crappy cell pic I just took to give you an idea of the night visuals and why I don't sweat night sights or laser much. It's my pistol-gripped 590 with a mounted Surefire and the factory bead.
Now I think we all set up our guns and decide on our tactics based on the scenarios we envision in our environments and our skill levels, and those all obviously differ. It would've been useful if the OP had been a little more specific, by the way, in order to tailor our responses better to his needs.
But assuming that the threat might be a few thugs instead of a critter, I'd prefer both hands on a 12 gauge, especially a pump. I use various lights all the time with my 1911s and do not want them mounted, which makes me an anomaly, but it's because I can handle a pistol well enough one-handed and as a civvie I don't want handguns to be my light source. Now a long gun with a light in one hand... is of course doable for a few shots, but that would be betting on a dexterity that I don't have, especially if there's reloads on the program. I used to train for tac reloads with a pistol, for example, and ended up dropping this technique(s) altogether for speed reloads at slide lock years ago. Mags held between shaky, sweaty and maybe bloody fingers seem like an unnecessary recipe for fumbles to me and it goes again my overarching KISS mentality. I'll be frank and consider those circus tricks that are designed to keep training schools in business, to be honest, as they change all the time. So if you can pull the un-mounted light off with your Mossberg, my hat's off to ya.
I wouldn't debate anyone on lasers (I never even tried them) or night sights (I find them inconsistent) because I feel I'm in a very small minority and I may be wrong on this. I just don't like the very idea of those, period. Lemme just say that at night I always have at least one light with me and, while not ideal, I'm always able to see bead or front sight when I light up what's downrange. Depending on the placement of the light source, I've even seen front sights become blinding so I prefer them fairly dim, if not black. I have a gold bead on one of my 1911s and it gives me trouble at indoor ranges, to give you an example, way too bright in harsh lighting.
Here's a crappy cell pic I just took to give you an idea of the night visuals and why I don't sweat night sights or laser much. It's my pistol-gripped 590 with a mounted Surefire and the factory bead.
Last edited:
Joseph Mosser
.22LR
For Pete's sake guys, I have little doubt that you probably scared Vinny half to death. He asked for help and you turned it into an inside argument.
But yes, your best bet Vinny is to get a good light and spend a lot of time practicing. While lasers have been used to great effect in close range self defense with handguns ( think mugging: guy sees laser on chest and will probably rethink this), on a long gun while trying to defend a structure, it will give away your position. The military doesn't even use visible lasers. The light will serve you much better. CASE CLOSED
But yes, your best bet Vinny is to get a good light and spend a lot of time practicing. While lasers have been used to great effect in close range self defense with handguns ( think mugging: guy sees laser on chest and will probably rethink this), on a long gun while trying to defend a structure, it will give away your position. The military doesn't even use visible lasers. The light will serve you much better. CASE CLOSED
Twelve Pump
.270 WIN
Wow.
I've seen arguments on forums, and this is not one of them; just a exchange of ideas based on each persons experiences and opinions, as you have presented yours.
I can think of a few evil black rifle and handgun sites that would have exploded into a 100 page rant by now if the same question had been posted.
Oh snap! I didn't realize this was an argument, I should have used all caps and my angry eyes.
I actually agree with more of what @Twelve Pump says than I disagree, even if he has wood furniture on his Persuader, but whatever.
I agree with this.
Good thing you got us lined out here, thank you.
Exactly.
Twelve Pump
.270 WIN
Yeah, that was no argument. We were just comparing notes in the interest of the OP (who might find food for thought in there) and anybody reading, really (who might be wondering about the subject too). I know it's a lot of words on a topic that might sound clear-cut and simple to some, but I don't do 'yes' or 'no' answers online because the opinion of strangers is useless. I prefer giving people enough of my thought process for them to decide whether I make sense or not. And I'm glad that others here were also willing to expand on their takes.
I dunno about you guys, but I've been called verbose and wordy more than my share before and I realize that this can annoy some (but they don't have to read). The flip side is that I've been thanked many times by posters for helping them make a decision when they were confused or for voicing things they were afraid to bring up.
Besides, on the internet I've known so far only the OP or mods decide if/when a discussion has run its course.
I dunno about you guys, but I've been called verbose and wordy more than my share before and I realize that this can annoy some (but they don't have to read). The flip side is that I've been thanked many times by posters for helping them make a decision when they were confused or for voicing things they were afraid to bring up.
Besides, on the internet I've known so far only the OP or mods decide if/when a discussion has run its course.
Oh, it's on now!!
Last edited:
I agree with all of the above.
Given there are often many facets to what seems a very general question, I prefer to elaborate on my opinions by sharing experiences to go with them.
Someone asks a question; Should I do this or this, yay or nay? Without more background, we can't say with any degree of certainty, but merely, at least in my estimation, say - Here's what I do and this is why I do it and what I use it for. I would be remiss in my duties to my fellow shotgunners if I didn't share my experiences.
Given there are often many facets to what seems a very general question, I prefer to elaborate on my opinions by sharing experiences to go with them.
Someone asks a question; Should I do this or this, yay or nay? Without more background, we can't say with any degree of certainty, but merely, at least in my estimation, say - Here's what I do and this is why I do it and what I use it for. I would be remiss in my duties to my fellow shotgunners if I didn't share my experiences.
Oh, it's on now!!
Lol, I was wondering if you had caught that!
Twelve Pump
.270 WIN
Did the double-take thing. Diagonal reading is a bad habit...