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people out west

The video still does not change mind about Finnicum being shot. The Leo's goal was to break the windows and place tear gas paint balls in the truck, flash bangs to disorient. It is unfortunate the outcome, but had Finnicum exited the vehicle, put his hands up and stop moving around in a twisted up manner, he would still be alive and in a jail cell.
What I am waiting for is when the fed orders Bundy's cattle to be repoed again. I bet there will be another situation.
Anyway, bad deal for everyone .
 
Yep, but there were two shots from the FBI's team that have resulted in a seperate criminal investigation into the actions of those HRT members.
 
So what we have now.... is a bunch of dudes protesting the government, then the government is investigating the dudes protesting the government , and then the government is accused of covering up the investigation of the dudes protesting the government , and then the government investigating their own coverup in the investigation of the dudes protesting the government ...
Did I miss anything?....
 
I don't think so.

Other than the Government ambushed them. In the in-car video, I heard several rounds striking the car.
 
It always did look like the FBI over reacted. Maybe they suspected he was wearing a bomb? They didn't wait to see a gun AFAICT.

Did they shoot at the car because Finnicum was charging their roadblock?

I can't quite tell the sequence of events.
 
They set the road block up on the far side of a blind curve.

I honestly see that as more of an ambush tactic.

It is effective road block, but they knew he was traveling at a high rate of speed so to me, the gunfire was excessive because it wasn't a surprise to anyone they were coming. They were in the middle of no where. Being tailed by a vehicle which I'm certain had contact with the roadblock and under surviellance by the drone.

Spike strips would've been far more effective and less lethal that bullets, or as they said in some report that I read, were firing 40mm crybaby grenades at the hood of the car?

Who shoots 40mm tear gas grenades at a moving vehicle. That's retarded. And I believe factually incorrect/false judging from the sound on the in-car video/audio well before the car came to a stop.

I see problems with both the LEO and Finnicum's actions both. Had he stayed in the vehicle, I'm not sure if the outcome would have been different or not. But he was at fault too. I'm not laying blame on any specific person at all. I saw a lot of things I didn't like from both angles.

I didn't see the fbi agent run into the woods as the report said to avoid their car swerving to avoid colliding into the cruisers. Best I could tell, he was set up in the tree's the entire time.
 
It was an ambush. But he was running from a federal agent.
At that point they can just blow you off the road, right?

I can hear the FBI guys right now:
"OK this guy is a nut case. Don't take any chances."

Whether he deserved to die like that or not, he is lucky (if any dead man can be called lucky) that he didn't take out the others in the car with him.
 
The agent that appears to be jumping in front of Finnicums truck, in my mind, was bailing from behind his truck, thinking Finnicum was going to plow into it. Either way, he was not jumping in front of Finnicums truck for shits and giggles.
Bottom line is that he ran from the Leo's, he set the tone right there. The way I see it, he had 2 chances to live to tell the tail. Get out and surrender at the first point of contact. 2. When he exited the truck at the road block, if he stood still and put his arms up, and stopped moving around arradically, he would still be alive.
It is easy to 2nd guess all that has taken place, but we were not there, adrenaline is pumping, it was a high speed chase with people known to have weapons, Finnicum stated he would die before going to jail many times prior on video. If you were the Leo, would you have waited longer when Finnicum reached into his jacket ?
I can not say one way or another regarding the supposed shots from the FBI prior to the death, but in the video. Taking shots at a truck approaching the road block at a high rate of speed does not seem unreasonable to me.
I don't think Finnicum was a bad man, I watched some of his videos and found them intersting and educational, he seemed like a smart articulate compassionate hardworking man. But he made choices that day that led to his death. Maybe he wanted to die as a marter for the cause, I don't know.
All in all, this was a bad deal from the get go, it was not planned to accomplish anything but for all these men to go to jail or to meet there maker.
 
My replies in red

At one time many years ago, I was a Deputy Jailer and got quite a bit of accredited training and while it was state specific, I doubt it would be very different from most other states. I don't know Oregon law, but I can put my 2 cents worth into it from some of the material that I had to learn.

Deog said:
The agent that appears to be jumping in front of Finnicums truck, in my mind, was bailing from behind his truck, thinking Finnicum was going to plow into it. Either way, he was not jumping in front of Finnicums truck for shits and giggles.

Agreed. But that wasn't the LEO that emerged from the tree line as Finnicum exited and went to the rear of the vehicle.

Bottom line is that he ran from the Leo's, he set the tone right there.

Yes he did. No disagreement there.

The way I see it, he had 2 chances to live to tell the tail. Get out and surrender at the first point of contact. 2. When he exited the truck at the road block, if he stood still and put his arms up, and stopped moving around arradically, he would still be alive.

One would hope and think. Remaining in the vehicle wasn't a guarantee of survival though. Especially while taking fire. And they were from hearing the in-car video/audio.

To be perfectly honest, in knowing how bullets will travel through a vehicle, Finnicum may have been trying to retreat to get as far away from the gunfire as possible, and thus moving to the rear of the truck in order to take better cover to keep from being shot. He may not have known which direction the gunfire was coming from and only saw the other officer coming at him with a weapon pointed at him. Neither of us know that for sure.

I don't want to second guess either. I can only judge from what I saw, and heard.

It is easy to 2nd guess all that has taken place, but we were not there, adrenaline is pumping, it was a high speed chase with people known to have weapons, Finnicum stated he would die before going to jail many times prior on video. If you were the Leo, would you have waited longer when Finnicum reached into his jacket ?

You cannot shoot someone without physically seeing a weapon in their hand. End of story. Otherwise there would be CCW and OC law abiding citizens being shot all the time. This much I know for sure. The last thing anyone (especially agency) wants to do is shoot someone trying to get their cellphone, which may have well been what he was reaching for all we know. It would be a media nightmare for the agency to have an officer shoot someone who was unarmed. Not only is that bad publicity, that is criminal.

I can not say one way or another regarding the supposed shots from the FBI prior to the death, but in the video. Taking shots at a truck approaching the road block at a high rate of speed does not seem unreasonable to me.

It is excessive in my opinion. There were other alternatives than opening fire.

Gunfire should be the last resort. Not the first.

I didn't see any spike strip deployment, even the chase vehicle was staying well back, which does indicate that there was activity ahead. They weren't out running the cruiser. The Cruiser was intentionally staying back far enough to keep contact, but not to overtake their pickup and to be in radio contact with the road block keeping them updated of the situation.

I don't think Finnicum was a bad man, I watched some of his videos and found them intersting and educational, he seemed like a smart articulate compassionate hardworking man. But he made choices that day that led to his death. Maybe he wanted to die as a marter for the cause, I don't know.
All in all, this was a bad deal from the get go, it was not planned to accomplish anything but for all these men to go to jail or to meet there maker.
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I thought the guy that shot Finnicum came from the tree line and was a Oregon state trooper.

Regardless of who was in the tree line, they were prepared for the worst at the road block, they had all there bases covered. When I hear people say that Finnicum was murdered, all I can figure is that they watched a different video then the one I watched.
 
Charges are still pending against them in their family case though.
 
Lisa Maxfield, who represented Wampler, came out of the courthouse, holding up her fists. She said she has never seen "anything like this happen,'' where multiple defendants in a federal trial were all acquitted.
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I know I'm an outsider, but I followed this somewhat from up here and read with great interest all the comments in this thread...I am very gratified to see these people acquitted. However, I'm a little surprised they chose a trial by jury. But as with most people in power, they misjudge the mood of the people. And what could have been a slamdunk with a judge...well they're walking free...well most of them.

I think it is very telling of the federal government's mood when they'll taser a suit in a courtroom for demanding due process and a legality they don't give a damn about.

They're still out to punish the Bundys' and they will throw everything they've got at them in the Nevada case I'm sure...with a vengeance.

If I might add, the election and situations like this should just scream to everyone that the federal system is so broken and corrupt...so far from its original intent.

And, we are truly no better positioned here either. Under our rules of government the Prime Minister actually has more operational authority to act without interference than your president. Scary thought with Hairdo Trudeau in the drivers seat.

Anyway, I'm glad they were acquitted.
 
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