Dogs
- Thread starter DHonovich
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Anyone have any dog related issues? Training behavior problems?
We used to do much more training than we do now adays.
I'll relate to you one of my current issues. My birdog has been driving me crazy with barking in the middle of the night! We live in a rural community and we're right along side the edge of the woods and the edge of town. There is an 800 acre farm just across the creek. So we see all sorts of critters, and she barks at all of them. I tried approaching this as a training and behavior issue, and trained with rewards and stuff. I thought I had her broke of it, but since my frustration has led me to try nearly everything short of putting a FMJ in her head. That and a bark collar. I hadnt tried the bark collar because I'm so used to dealing with a certain community of dog people who believe in general the fault lies with the owner/handler. Everything can be cured with training and behavior modification based on positive rewards. Well it just isnt so and her behavior modification shipped USPS First Class today. Should be here mid next week. If she lives that long, I'll try it on her.
We used to do much more training than we do now adays.
I'll relate to you one of my current issues. My birdog has been driving me crazy with barking in the middle of the night! We live in a rural community and we're right along side the edge of the woods and the edge of town. There is an 800 acre farm just across the creek. So we see all sorts of critters, and she barks at all of them. I tried approaching this as a training and behavior issue, and trained with rewards and stuff. I thought I had her broke of it, but since my frustration has led me to try nearly everything short of putting a FMJ in her head. That and a bark collar. I hadnt tried the bark collar because I'm so used to dealing with a certain community of dog people who believe in general the fault lies with the owner/handler. Everything can be cured with training and behavior modification based on positive rewards. Well it just isnt so and her behavior modification shipped USPS First Class today. Should be here mid next week. If she lives that long, I'll try it on her.
so i was just checking out all the un answered posts and ran across this one....
i know its old.
how'd it go.
my dog is the same way. she will not quiet at all when she starts. jogger, dog, bird, leaf,noise....anything...bark bark bark....
how did the zap collar work? i was thinking of getting one so i can teach her how to stick around when i let her off the leash. it would be nice to have her off when we are in the yard relaxin or at the bonfire....
i know its old.
how'd it go.
my dog is the same way. she will not quiet at all when she starts. jogger, dog, bird, leaf,noise....anything...bark bark bark....
how did the zap collar work? i was thinking of getting one so i can teach her how to stick around when i let her off the leash. it would be nice to have her off when we are in the yard relaxin or at the bonfire....
We got the collar in a couple weeks ago. It helps, but doesnt fully keep her from barking.
The shock/training collars I have considered too. I have always been told not to use it as a correction until the dogs is responding appropriately to commands at least 80 percent of the time. I want to use one for recall as well. So say for recall, (I usually whistle) 8 out of ten times she should come back, which she mostly does. Its those 2 times that she gets "busy" and doesnt listen to a thing that she goes runnin for ever and will likely get herself killed down the road somewhere. Or worse, not die and then I find her and have to put a bullet in her head.
I post to some forums where folks are dead set against using shock collars because they feeel any training issue is an issue in which the fault lies with the handler. However, I dont know many hunters that dont use them judiciously and effectively rather often, like daily even.
The shock/training collars I have considered too. I have always been told not to use it as a correction until the dogs is responding appropriately to commands at least 80 percent of the time. I want to use one for recall as well. So say for recall, (I usually whistle) 8 out of ten times she should come back, which she mostly does. Its those 2 times that she gets "busy" and doesnt listen to a thing that she goes runnin for ever and will likely get herself killed down the road somewhere. Or worse, not die and then I find her and have to put a bullet in her head.
I post to some forums where folks are dead set against using shock collars because they feeel any training issue is an issue in which the fault lies with the handler. However, I dont know many hunters that dont use them judiciously and effectively rather often, like daily even.
well mine has a mind of her own...i really have tried to train her to do these commands...
"come here." hardley ever....
"sit." sometimes...i have to say it sternly.
"lay down." only when she wants to.
"gimme yer paw." all the time.
"stay." not so much..
"easy." when we are playing and she gets a lil rough i say easy and also
"no bite." those she really understands.
"heel." never.
she's 2 now. i figured since i was unemployed at the time i had plenty of time to teach her...but she just seems to forget the majority of everything the next day.
"come here." hardley ever....
"sit." sometimes...i have to say it sternly.
"lay down." only when she wants to.
"gimme yer paw." all the time.
"stay." not so much..
"easy." when we are playing and she gets a lil rough i say easy and also
"no bite." those she really understands.
"heel." never.
she's 2 now. i figured since i was unemployed at the time i had plenty of time to teach her...but she just seems to forget the majority of everything the next day.
I can help with many of these! I used to train alot, and really got into training when I was off work for some time for medical reasons. I had my 4 month old American Bulldog mix responding to hand signals reliably which she still does to this day at 7 years old.
The basic stuff isnt to hard, it takes patience and repetition combined with some positive reinforcement. Just have to find the right motivation which can be tricky sometimes. Mine have always been good to go with regular dry dog food!
Another aspect, keep the training sessions brief, like 10 to 15 minutes at a time. Maybe do some traing a couple or few times a day, but short segments. Also be sure to mix in some play time, and one of the practice sessions can be right before a meal time. Make the dog work a little and then release her to go eat. If you leave food down all the time, I wouldnt for awhile. Make her work some.
I can get into some of this in more detail if you wanna call sometime;
937 625 4074.
I'm good with basic stuff, but my pointer pup has really thrown me for a loop recently. By far the most hard headed dog I have EVER worked with.
The basic stuff isnt to hard, it takes patience and repetition combined with some positive reinforcement. Just have to find the right motivation which can be tricky sometimes. Mine have always been good to go with regular dry dog food!
Another aspect, keep the training sessions brief, like 10 to 15 minutes at a time. Maybe do some traing a couple or few times a day, but short segments. Also be sure to mix in some play time, and one of the practice sessions can be right before a meal time. Make the dog work a little and then release her to go eat. If you leave food down all the time, I wouldnt for awhile. Make her work some.
I can get into some of this in more detail if you wanna call sometime;
937 625 4074.
I'm good with basic stuff, but my pointer pup has really thrown me for a loop recently. By far the most hard headed dog I have EVER worked with.
@rossignol...thank you.
i will be implementing 15m sessions for her. Just have to find the right motivation first like you said.
@maierar...i tried different variations of the commands i wanted her to learn and she didn't budge at all for "come" but "come here" she will take her sweet time to mosey on over...
i will be implementing 15m sessions for her. Just have to find the right motivation first like you said.
@maierar...i tried different variations of the commands i wanted her to learn and she didn't budge at all for "come" but "come here" she will take her sweet time to mosey on over...
Our four-month old Black Lab pup - who we've had for a little more than two weeks - was doing well with house training until late last week. Previously, he'd even gone to the back door a couple times to be let out to take care of business. Suddenly, he decided it was more convenient to pee indoors.
Our training method is crate-based. He spends a good portion of his time in his crate unless we are in the immediate area to supervise. When we feed him or allow him to drink, we take him outside a few minutes later - generally to the same area of the yard - and give him the command "go potty". He hadn't gotten to the point where he would go immediately, but about 80% of the time he would sniff around, find a place and go. We then rewarded him with "good boy" and some play time with a favorite toy.
That training led us to the point where he indicated his need to go out by going to the back door and looking at us and then looking out. We let him out, he took care of business and we rewarded him. A day later, he was peeing in all kinds of places. I caught him peeing in the living room, gave him the "No!" command and put him outside. An hour later he made a huge puddle in another area of the house.
I realize he's a puppy and he'll regress from time to time, but I'm curious if anyone has any insight.
Our training method is crate-based. He spends a good portion of his time in his crate unless we are in the immediate area to supervise. When we feed him or allow him to drink, we take him outside a few minutes later - generally to the same area of the yard - and give him the command "go potty". He hadn't gotten to the point where he would go immediately, but about 80% of the time he would sniff around, find a place and go. We then rewarded him with "good boy" and some play time with a favorite toy.
That training led us to the point where he indicated his need to go out by going to the back door and looking at us and then looking out. We let him out, he took care of business and we rewarded him. A day later, he was peeing in all kinds of places. I caught him peeing in the living room, gave him the "No!" command and put him outside. An hour later he made a huge puddle in another area of the house.
I realize he's a puppy and he'll regress from time to time, but I'm curious if anyone has any insight.
ripjack13 said:
We're having pretty good success with most of these. Does your dog respond to her name? Does she respond to a whistle?
Here's how I've worked with dogs in the past ... and with out current pup:
1. I like to use a training collar - some people call them a choke collar, but the point is not to literally choke the dog, merely to apply some pressure to provide the dog with immediate feedback when they are not performing.
2. Both positive and negative reinforcement are necessary to train a dog. Understanding your dog and what type of reinforcement has the most impact is important. I'm not a big fan of food treats as rewards as I don't want to have to carry them with me all the time to train my dog. I also want the dog to obey because it wants to please me, not because it sees me as a human Pez dispenser and happens to want a treat at that particular time.
3. Feedback should escalate in direct correlation to the dog's behavior. I try to use a three-step escalation process. For instance, if I'm trying to break a dog of an undesirable behavior, I will initially simply issue a "no" command - not overly loud or harsh. If the dog continues the behavior, the "no" command gets louder and harsher and is generally accompanied with some sort of physical feedback (training collar, pushing away, etc.). Physical feedback should not cause the dog pain. I don't believe most dogs need to be struck, even with a newspaper, to understand that they're doing something they shouldn't.
4. Come - With the training collar on and a long leash (maybe 15'), allow your dog to play within the range of the leash. Squat down and issue the "come" command. Make it a pleasant command, not one that comes across as mean or angry. As you issue the command, apply a little pressure with the leash. If the dog comes to you, reward it generously in a manner that is meaningful to the dog. If the dog does not come, apply more pressure until it does.
5. Sit - With the training collar on and the dog on a short leash (less than 6'), issue the "sit" command. As you issue the command, I apply slight upward pressure by pulling the leash straight up above the dog's head. When the head goes up, the butt goes down. Immediately release the pressure (this is a positive reward) and provide additional positive reinforcement.
6. Take a break. Allow your dog to become proficient at a couple commands before you overload her with more. At two years old, your dog is like a teenager. I don't know if you have kids, but most teenagers can't focus on too many things at once. Your dog is the same way.
7. Heel - I like this to be one of the early commands for my dogs. First, dogs need exercise. There aren't many better ways for you and your dog to get exercise than to go for a walk or jog. A tired dog is going to be a more obient dog. Second, I want my dogs to be polite. You won't enjoy taking your dog for a walk if it's not polite. If you don't enjoy taking your dog for a walk ... you won't. If you don't take your dog for a walk, it's going to have all kinds of pent up energy. If your dog has all kinds of pent up energy ... well, you get the point. A dog that walks at your side, rather than circling around you or crossing up in front of you or dragging you or holding you back, is a dog that you'll want to talke for a walk.
OK, now the training part:
Back to the training collar and short leash for this one. Start walking and give the command "heel". I also slap my thigh when I give the command. Eventually, this will be a queue to the dog so it knows on which side of my body I want it to heel. Keep walking. Eventually, you'll run out of leash or your dog will try to run ahead of you or around you. Use the leash and training collar to apply pressure to "pull" your dog into position. Walk with about 1' of slack in the leash so the dog starts to experience pressure as soon as it goes too far forward, lags too far behind or tries to cross over. Whenever your dog starts to stray out of the "heel zone", give the leash a little jerk (not too hard, but the dog needs to feel some pressure) and give the command "heel" again. The first few times you do this, you may end up giving the "heel" command ever 5-10'. It's going to be a long walk.
Eventually, your dog will figure out what you want, but it may still need a reminder. Our puppy gets a little head-strong when we turn into the home stretch on walks. I use a couple different methods to remind him where he should be walking. One is a little more pressure on the training collar while walking a little bit more slowly. The other is to hold my open hand in front of his face to provide a physical barrier. If he passes my hand, he gets a little jerk on the chain. After two weeks, we're at the point where just the sound of the chain starting to close up gets his attention.
8. A couple quick basics and then I have to go:
A. Make sure your commands are consistent in tone, volume and tenor. Don't escalate the commands or your dog will learn only to obey when the command is at its loudest and most insistent.
B. Make sure everything else about your training is consistent. Everyone in your household who works with the dog should know the commands and use them consistently - same tone, volume and tenor. Dogs don't actually understand human language, but they recognize sound patterns.
C. Couple physical signs with your verbal commands. Eventually, you may be able to simply use the physical signs.
D. Make your dog sit before it gets to eat. Fill the bowl while the dog is sitting. You may need to use the training collar to restrain it at first, but eventually it will learn. When you are ready for it to eat, say "OK". The "OK" command will be foundational in the future. It means, "You are now free to stop doing what I've told you to do and do what you want to do until I tell you to do something else."
E. I also make my dog sit when we meet new dogs and when we answer the door. This is more "manners" training. My dogs are not allowed to jump on other dogs or on people unless I say "OK".
As a side note, if you want to train a dog to defend you, train it to come to the door with you when you answer the door. It sits in a designated spot. I like the spot to be where the person standing outside the door will see the dog before it sees me or a member of my family. So, if the doorknob is on the right, the dog sits to the right of me as I open the door inward. A mature dog can then be taught a defensive command like "attack". IMO, the "attack" command should NOT be taught to a dog under the age of four. Some, particularly excitable dogs, should NEVER be taught the "attack" command.
maierar said:
This is a good point. The dog initially has no idea what a given command means. I try issuing a command once, and then with some creativity manipulate the dog to performing the command. I try to keep my hands off as much as possible. As soon as I get the desired reaction, immediate reward, generally something easily chewed and swallowed, though regular food works for mine as I mentioned.
ripjack13 said:
This is where you decide on a command and be consistent. Finding the right motivation will hasten the dogs recall, or "come" or "here". Issue the command firmly, and when it doesnt work, dont go to the dog and dont repeat it over and over.
Again, call me if you like! I can expand on some of this way better when talking than I can when I type!
I havent fully read Mud's post, so I may be repeating some stuff!
Lots of good points Toby!
Working with a training lead/check cord, and a choke or pinch collar can be very helpful. As Toby mentioned, the choke collar isnt used to "choke" but really only to apply pressure. A common misperception iis that a bigger dog need a bigger or thicker collar. I disagree. A narrower choke collar will be more effective as you will be applying and focussing the same force on to a smaller plane.
For us food motivation works well, and we cut the food reward back as time goes by and the command become reliable. But for some dogs, food will never work. I have worked with professional trainers preparing dogs for title testing and have been told of dogs that absolutely no prey chase or food drive, and the only thing that worked was a squeaky toy.
I agree, a dog should not need to be struck, correction should not cause pain. I have seen some very unusual circumstances that required very unorthodox training techniques, sometime choking the dog out. Though I have only seen this used in extreme situations with aggressive dogs as a last chance effort to reform a dog before being put down because the dog was not only aggressive but very confident and not bluffing in the least. I have punched a dog squarely between the eyes to stop an attack. It was that or shoot the dog. The first choice was less permanent.
Another thought on the newspaper. I have litterally seen situations where folks are housebreaking a dog and "paper training" then use a rolled up newspaper to smack the dog as a correction when the dog goes in the house and then later wonder why the dog wont go near the "newspaper" on the floor.
Toby also mentions the dogs being like teenagers. Very True! They go through weird hard headed adolescent phases and begin acting like they have never been taught anything. So def take breaks, dont be real super rigid and unable to be flexible in traing. Dont practice the same routine in the same order daily. Get good with a few commands as mentioned, then start mixing more in a little at a time, and sometimes you have to drop back and punt. Go back to the basics.
Toby make several other good points about the tone of your voice and consistent commands combined with hand signals. Def make sure everyone in the house is on the same page. We often train in a whisper, and use "shhhh" as a settle command, or settle down, be calm. Just a quiet whispered "shhhhhhh".
Have fun!!!!!
Working with a training lead/check cord, and a choke or pinch collar can be very helpful. As Toby mentioned, the choke collar isnt used to "choke" but really only to apply pressure. A common misperception iis that a bigger dog need a bigger or thicker collar. I disagree. A narrower choke collar will be more effective as you will be applying and focussing the same force on to a smaller plane.
For us food motivation works well, and we cut the food reward back as time goes by and the command become reliable. But for some dogs, food will never work. I have worked with professional trainers preparing dogs for title testing and have been told of dogs that absolutely no prey chase or food drive, and the only thing that worked was a squeaky toy.
I agree, a dog should not need to be struck, correction should not cause pain. I have seen some very unusual circumstances that required very unorthodox training techniques, sometime choking the dog out. Though I have only seen this used in extreme situations with aggressive dogs as a last chance effort to reform a dog before being put down because the dog was not only aggressive but very confident and not bluffing in the least. I have punched a dog squarely between the eyes to stop an attack. It was that or shoot the dog. The first choice was less permanent.
Another thought on the newspaper. I have litterally seen situations where folks are housebreaking a dog and "paper training" then use a rolled up newspaper to smack the dog as a correction when the dog goes in the house and then later wonder why the dog wont go near the "newspaper" on the floor.
Toby also mentions the dogs being like teenagers. Very True! They go through weird hard headed adolescent phases and begin acting like they have never been taught anything. So def take breaks, dont be real super rigid and unable to be flexible in traing. Dont practice the same routine in the same order daily. Get good with a few commands as mentioned, then start mixing more in a little at a time, and sometimes you have to drop back and punt. Go back to the basics.
Toby make several other good points about the tone of your voice and consistent commands combined with hand signals. Def make sure everyone in the house is on the same page. We often train in a whisper, and use "shhhh" as a settle command, or settle down, be calm. Just a quiet whispered "shhhhhhh".
Have fun!!!!!
Mudinyeri said:
Just as you said, he'll regress from time to time. I have found training to be more difficult with hunting dogs tghan with non-hunting dogs. I go through it too with my pointer. Shes over a year old now.
I dont know the fix, other than to back up to where he was reliably going outside. Go back to the last known good configuration. Restart in safe mode, rollback data bases. Repeat the steps.
LOL @ "restart in safe mode". We re-started again tonight after an accident on the rug in our foyer. Logically, I know puppies progress and regress. It's just frustrating when they regress and I was hoping for a magic command.
I've also punched a couple dogs during attacks, but I would strongly recommend against painful correction if you want a dog to trust you and have a strong desire to obey you.
I've also punched a couple dogs during attacks, but I would strongly recommend against painful correction if you want a dog to trust you and have a strong desire to obey you.
good stuff...lots of great info i understand.
my neighbor has a pointer and has had them in the past, and he told me he uses a bell on the door handle both front and back, and when he tells the dog its time to "go potty" he rings the bell. after a little while she started to do the same...she would bump the bell with her nose and then look at him and sit at the door.
cat treats are small ( pretty much cat food)and she LOVES them, and she wont get "full" every time i use them. the squeaky toy wont work...i tried. all she wants to do is chew it.
my neighbor has a pointer and has had them in the past, and he told me he uses a bell on the door handle both front and back, and when he tells the dog its time to "go potty" he rings the bell. after a little while she started to do the same...she would bump the bell with her nose and then look at him and sit at the door.
cat treats are small ( pretty much cat food)and she LOVES them, and she wont get "full" every time i use them. the squeaky toy wont work...i tried. all she wants to do is chew it.
Mudinyeri said:
I totally agree!
rip, we have bells on our back door too! Theyre sleigh bell type bells, the dogs go to the back door and ring them when they wanna go. We didnt actually teach them to use them, our older dogs have taught the younger dogs I guess...