Less than Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.
- Thread starter Nick Burkhardt
- Start date
Nick Burkhardt
.270 WIN
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.
While I appreciate the different viewpoints, I have made the decision based on our level of experience with firearms, and my area which has had zero armed home invasions in the 20 years we have lived here. If I were in oil700's area and near the I-5 drug corridor I would choose a different load.
The great thing about a pump action shotgun is its versatility. I don't have to shoot Less that Lethal for the first round. I can shuck out that round and load the tube with buckshot if I hear a significant threat. Or I can grab a buckshot off the sidesaddle and slap it in the port.
With all the above information considered what are your recommendations for a first Less that Lethal shell? Beanbag, rubber buckshot, Lightfield Star or other?
While I appreciate the different viewpoints, I have made the decision based on our level of experience with firearms, and my area which has had zero armed home invasions in the 20 years we have lived here. If I were in oil700's area and near the I-5 drug corridor I would choose a different load.
The great thing about a pump action shotgun is its versatility. I don't have to shoot Less that Lethal for the first round. I can shuck out that round and load the tube with buckshot if I hear a significant threat. Or I can grab a buckshot off the sidesaddle and slap it in the port.
With all the above information considered what are your recommendations for a first Less that Lethal shell? Beanbag, rubber buckshot, Lightfield Star or other?
Tim4k5
.270 WIN
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.
Nick, to start I have to commend you and your wife for even having this discussion. Too many people don't have a plan, or if they have one they don't share it with others in the household.
The "first round LTL" issue is something that is completely a personal choice. The only thing I, or anyone else on here, can do is give you our personal opinions and reasoning. My own thoughts on the matter is a huge NO. If I'm woken up in the middle of the night by an intruder their personal safety and well-being are the least of my problems. MY family comes first......the intruders health ranks somewhere behind my microwave on the importance scale. That said, I'm also not going to swing around a corner with guns blazing. I keep weapon mounted lights on my HD guns for a good reason......much like your sneaking teenagers, I don't want to risk shooting at a dark figure that turns out to be my 12yo up for a midnight snack. ID the threat and then act accordingly........If it is simply a 15 year old kid from down the street looking to score an xBox or a DVD player they will probably drop to the floor and be laying in a puddle of their own urine when the Police show up (your wife WAS calling 911, right?). You also have to accept the fact that it may NOT be the 15yo kid.......you may find your light shining on the 4-time ex-con who saw your wife at the grocery store and decided to follow and see where she lived.......maybe decided she was awful pretty and the house looked awful nice. THAT guy is pretty determined to not go back to prison again and all the time he's had on the weights in the yard have made him pretty big. Do you want to risk a room-width distance shot with a LTL that may have little to no effect on him? How fast do you think he could close the distance between the two of you following a LTL shot that has caused no damage other than pain? How fast can you cycle your 500? Then recycle it because you short-stroked it because of panic? Think he's on you yet?
I want my first shot to either put the badguy flat on his butt from the start or I want him bleeding out heavily while he's fighting me for my shotgun......who cares if he's got a bruise.....
There was one statement you made though that I'm going to share a story about that I hope changes your and your wifes outlook a bit.....
I live in a small town in Southern Illinois. Violent crime is, for the most part, non-existant. We do however have a fair number of burglaries of empty homes and just last month had a burglar get surprised by a homeowner who was actually at home asleep. Please be very aware that there are also predators that live amongst those looking for an easy score. A few years back, in a neighboring town, one of those predators decided that the easiest score he could think of was an empty Church. Guy had a long rap-sheet of mostly small stuff. This case has been CRUCIAL in the push for allowing Concealed Carry in Illinois. Because, you see, that Church wasn't empty......inside was the 69yo Church secretary and the 76yo woman who took care of the cleaning. This small time scavenger wasn't expecting a confrontation and "fight or flight" took over and his brain chose fight. He beat both women within an inch of their life. Thankfully, they both survived despite broken ribs, jaws, skull fractures and every other injury you can imagine coming about from a 30-something ex-con beating and stomping on two little old ladies. I've had the pleasure of meeting Mary Sheperd over the past few years......she is a HUGE advocate for CCW and protecting your home.
Here is a picture that was taken at the hospital following her attack. The image isn't pretty but Mary wants as many people as possible to see it.........Please, show this to your wife so she can begin to understand what happens when you have a "scavenger" who is confronted with a score that isn't as easy as first thought and the victim is unable or unwilling to use every means necessary to defend themselves.
Nick, to start I have to commend you and your wife for even having this discussion. Too many people don't have a plan, or if they have one they don't share it with others in the household.
The "first round LTL" issue is something that is completely a personal choice. The only thing I, or anyone else on here, can do is give you our personal opinions and reasoning. My own thoughts on the matter is a huge NO. If I'm woken up in the middle of the night by an intruder their personal safety and well-being are the least of my problems. MY family comes first......the intruders health ranks somewhere behind my microwave on the importance scale. That said, I'm also not going to swing around a corner with guns blazing. I keep weapon mounted lights on my HD guns for a good reason......much like your sneaking teenagers, I don't want to risk shooting at a dark figure that turns out to be my 12yo up for a midnight snack. ID the threat and then act accordingly........If it is simply a 15 year old kid from down the street looking to score an xBox or a DVD player they will probably drop to the floor and be laying in a puddle of their own urine when the Police show up (your wife WAS calling 911, right?). You also have to accept the fact that it may NOT be the 15yo kid.......you may find your light shining on the 4-time ex-con who saw your wife at the grocery store and decided to follow and see where she lived.......maybe decided she was awful pretty and the house looked awful nice. THAT guy is pretty determined to not go back to prison again and all the time he's had on the weights in the yard have made him pretty big. Do you want to risk a room-width distance shot with a LTL that may have little to no effect on him? How fast do you think he could close the distance between the two of you following a LTL shot that has caused no damage other than pain? How fast can you cycle your 500? Then recycle it because you short-stroked it because of panic? Think he's on you yet?
I want my first shot to either put the badguy flat on his butt from the start or I want him bleeding out heavily while he's fighting me for my shotgun......who cares if he's got a bruise.....
There was one statement you made though that I'm going to share a story about that I hope changes your and your wifes outlook a bit.....
Nick Burkhardt said:
I live in a small town in Southern Illinois. Violent crime is, for the most part, non-existant. We do however have a fair number of burglaries of empty homes and just last month had a burglar get surprised by a homeowner who was actually at home asleep. Please be very aware that there are also predators that live amongst those looking for an easy score. A few years back, in a neighboring town, one of those predators decided that the easiest score he could think of was an empty Church. Guy had a long rap-sheet of mostly small stuff. This case has been CRUCIAL in the push for allowing Concealed Carry in Illinois. Because, you see, that Church wasn't empty......inside was the 69yo Church secretary and the 76yo woman who took care of the cleaning. This small time scavenger wasn't expecting a confrontation and "fight or flight" took over and his brain chose fight. He beat both women within an inch of their life. Thankfully, they both survived despite broken ribs, jaws, skull fractures and every other injury you can imagine coming about from a 30-something ex-con beating and stomping on two little old ladies. I've had the pleasure of meeting Mary Sheperd over the past few years......she is a HUGE advocate for CCW and protecting your home.
Here is a picture that was taken at the hospital following her attack. The image isn't pretty but Mary wants as many people as possible to see it.........Please, show this to your wife so she can begin to understand what happens when you have a "scavenger" who is confronted with a score that isn't as easy as first thought and the victim is unable or unwilling to use every means necessary to defend themselves.
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.
Yeah I aint got nothin that will top Tim's post.
I'm actually really pissed off right now. I may come over and load your shotgun for you Nick with my ammo.
No charge.
Just because you are new doesnt mean you cant learn to get good fast. Case in point... I got my Shotgun last April 2012. By the end of the year I put down almost 4,000 rounds down range. 200 rounds every weekend or every other weekend. Then when I felt I had a good handle around the 1,000 mark I started doing drills and exercises with dummy rounds and at the range with change overs, different positions and transitions and feeding from the side saddle.
Know your weapon of choice like it's apart of you. When you wield it, you wield an extension of yourself.
Sorry over 15 years of martial arts I get preachy sometimes. I'm more of a doer anyway.
Yeah I aint got nothin that will top Tim's post.
I'm actually really pissed off right now. I may come over and load your shotgun for you Nick with my ammo.
No charge.
Just because you are new doesnt mean you cant learn to get good fast. Case in point... I got my Shotgun last April 2012. By the end of the year I put down almost 4,000 rounds down range. 200 rounds every weekend or every other weekend. Then when I felt I had a good handle around the 1,000 mark I started doing drills and exercises with dummy rounds and at the range with change overs, different positions and transitions and feeding from the side saddle.
Know your weapon of choice like it's apart of you. When you wield it, you wield an extension of yourself.
Sorry over 15 years of martial arts I get preachy sometimes. I'm more of a doer anyway.
Nick Burkhardt
.270 WIN
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.
You would think he would want to run after being hit with a shotgun blast even if it was only rubber. With all the neighbors calling 911 he is not going to want to stick around. What if the guy who followed her home was a 6'4" mentally challenged man and my wife used buckshot? Then we are the bad guys for killing Corky. The point I got after our discussion is that she is more likely to fire an "Alert the neighbors" shot with rubber than lead and feared that she may not be able to if lethal was her only choice. As Lightfield pointed out a bad guy may not know the extent of his injuries so there is deterrent with less of a chance of litigation. Like I said before, if we lived in a rural setting on acreage or in an urban area with lots of gangs, then my loads would be different.
A Church is a different setting as it has a larger buffer zone to the neighbors.
Again, does anyone have any experience with these Less than Lethal loads? For home defense distances I have determined that rubber slugs or a large single rubber ball has too much penetrative force. That leaves various sizes for rubber buckshot (Rio Maxam Rubber Buckshot or Fiocchi Rubber Buckshot 15 Pellets), beanbags (hard to find) or Lightfield stars which are insanely expensive at over $4 per shell. Lightfield, she is willing to test a free sample on watermelons at the range (hint hint).
Tim4k5 said:
You would think he would want to run after being hit with a shotgun blast even if it was only rubber. With all the neighbors calling 911 he is not going to want to stick around. What if the guy who followed her home was a 6'4" mentally challenged man and my wife used buckshot? Then we are the bad guys for killing Corky. The point I got after our discussion is that she is more likely to fire an "Alert the neighbors" shot with rubber than lead and feared that she may not be able to if lethal was her only choice. As Lightfield pointed out a bad guy may not know the extent of his injuries so there is deterrent with less of a chance of litigation. Like I said before, if we lived in a rural setting on acreage or in an urban area with lots of gangs, then my loads would be different.
Tim4k5 said:
A Church is a different setting as it has a larger buffer zone to the neighbors.
Again, does anyone have any experience with these Less than Lethal loads? For home defense distances I have determined that rubber slugs or a large single rubber ball has too much penetrative force. That leaves various sizes for rubber buckshot (Rio Maxam Rubber Buckshot or Fiocchi Rubber Buckshot 15 Pellets), beanbags (hard to find) or Lightfield stars which are insanely expensive at over $4 per shell. Lightfield, she is willing to test a free sample on watermelons at the range (hint hint).
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blsSSFZEqck[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v1a9rPyRBk[/youtube]
No experience but here's some video if you haven't seen it.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blsSSFZEqck[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v1a9rPyRBk[/youtube]
No experience but here's some video if you haven't seen it.
Frank Castle
.270 WIN
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.
Nick,
After reading through this thread, I dont think you will find anyone with "Personal Experience" in this matter. With the concensus being Lead over anything else. I would recomend, like with lead rounds, picking up a couple of boxes of each. Go to the range and try them and see if you have a preference. No matter what you choose, they will go bang and send a projectile that is "Less" likely to kill some one.
If/When you try these rounds out, please write up a review in this thread, or start another one to share your findings. From the looks of it, you are breaking new ground that we could all benefit from with more knowledge.
Good Luck
Frank
Nick Burkhardt said:
Nick,
After reading through this thread, I dont think you will find anyone with "Personal Experience" in this matter. With the concensus being Lead over anything else. I would recomend, like with lead rounds, picking up a couple of boxes of each. Go to the range and try them and see if you have a preference. No matter what you choose, they will go bang and send a projectile that is "Less" likely to kill some one.
If/When you try these rounds out, please write up a review in this thread, or start another one to share your findings. From the looks of it, you are breaking new ground that we could all benefit from with more knowledge.
Good Luck
Frank
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.
A picture is worth 1000 words WM!
Looks to me like both of those fellas in the first video, although they were in pain, were still 100% combat effective...
A picture is worth 1000 words WM!
Looks to me like both of those fellas in the first video, although they were in pain, were still 100% combat effective...
Frank Castle
.270 WIN
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.
I dont know where I read it, or who said it, but I believe it was on this forum.
"Some times the Bad Guy doesnt know they are dead until the hydraulics run out."
Frank
old mossy said:
I dont know where I read it, or who said it, but I believe it was on this forum.
"Some times the Bad Guy doesnt know they are dead until the hydraulics run out."
Frank
Nick Burkhardt
.270 WIN
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.
OK, thanks. Any preference between Rio and Fiocchi?
OK, thanks. Any preference between Rio and Fiocchi?
Frank Castle
.270 WIN
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.
Only way to know is putting rounds down range. Your gun may like one over the other, or both?
Frank
Nick Burkhardt said:
Only way to know is putting rounds down range. Your gun may like one over the other, or both?
Frank
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.
And if they were under the influence and had diminished sensitivity to pain.....
There is no guarantee with any gun, most of the time people don't just drop dead like they do in the movies. The human body and constitution can be remarkable, esp if we are unable or unwilling to feel pain. Sometimes the only way to stop a threat is a direct hit to the central nervous system.
LAZY EYED SNIPER said:
And if they were under the influence and had diminished sensitivity to pain.....
There is no guarantee with any gun, most of the time people don't just drop dead like they do in the movies. The human body and constitution can be remarkable, esp if we are unable or unwilling to feel pain. Sometimes the only way to stop a threat is a direct hit to the central nervous system.
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.
From what I gathered in my smooth bore 590A1 is that Rio 00 buck spreads very wide.
I've settled on 2 brands that worked very well having a tight group within 10 yards:
Hornady TAP full power 00 Buck
Federal LE Low Recoil Flight Control 00 Buck
Here's a pic of the Federal at 10 yards:
Nick Burkhardt said:
From what I gathered in my smooth bore 590A1 is that Rio 00 buck spreads very wide.
I've settled on 2 brands that worked very well having a tight group within 10 yards:
Hornady TAP full power 00 Buck
Federal LE Low Recoil Flight Control 00 Buck
Here's a pic of the Federal at 10 yards:
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.
+1 to the Federal...
Water Monkey said:
+1 to the Federal...
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.
They are roughly the same ammo. They are both European and constructed the same, usually pellets sitting on top of a cushion , not in a wad like a lot of American rounds. The tend to be the widest patterning rounds on the market due to their construction and the very soft lead pellets.
That being said I have shot a ton of both and never had a misfire, a stuck hull or any problem at all. When I patterned it , I thought it was acceptable for use to 10 or 15 yards out of my barrel, after 15 yards it got too spread out.
I don’t know what you want out of 00 buck but the consensus of most people is that too wide is bad….again preference and values at risk weigh in heavily on you ammo decision.
I don’t run it but I would have no problem running Rio or Fiocchi in my home. What you need to do is pattern it from you shotgun so you know what it is doing at various yards, all shotguns pattern loads differently, some slight some drastic.
If you find the pattern acceptable for your HD distances then you’re in luck, if it is not acceptable to you then you’re in luck again because almost all other 00 buck patterns tighter.
EDIT, SORRY MAN....I just actually realized you were still talking about rubber bullets, disregard my post....not trying to sway your decision
My take....or leave...Nick Burkhardt said:
They are roughly the same ammo. They are both European and constructed the same, usually pellets sitting on top of a cushion , not in a wad like a lot of American rounds. The tend to be the widest patterning rounds on the market due to their construction and the very soft lead pellets.
That being said I have shot a ton of both and never had a misfire, a stuck hull or any problem at all. When I patterned it , I thought it was acceptable for use to 10 or 15 yards out of my barrel, after 15 yards it got too spread out.
I don’t know what you want out of 00 buck but the consensus of most people is that too wide is bad….again preference and values at risk weigh in heavily on you ammo decision.
I don’t run it but I would have no problem running Rio or Fiocchi in my home. What you need to do is pattern it from you shotgun so you know what it is doing at various yards, all shotguns pattern loads differently, some slight some drastic.
If you find the pattern acceptable for your HD distances then you’re in luck, if it is not acceptable to you then you’re in luck again because almost all other 00 buck patterns tighter.
EDIT, SORRY MAN....I just actually realized you were still talking about rubber bullets, disregard my post....not trying to sway your decision
Nick Burkhardt
.270 WIN
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.
You have to understand that we are easing in to the thought of using a firearm for home defense. For the last 20 years all we had was a 3 D-cell Maglite, and it could be that is all we would need for the next 20 years.
The recoil of the first round is something to consider also. Is the recoil from #4 Buck much less than 00?
You have to understand that we are easing in to the thought of using a firearm for home defense. For the last 20 years all we had was a 3 D-cell Maglite, and it could be that is all we would need for the next 20 years.
The recoil of the first round is something to consider also. Is the recoil from #4 Buck much less than 00?
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.
Yes sir, it’s your castle , but we would never steer you wrong. We are simply trying to put you on the fast track to where you are going to end up anyway, I guarantee you that.
The recoil is comparable in both. If you or your woman are recoil shy then you should train with lighter target loads and load up with defensive ammo that is branded "low recoil".....as you learn to shoot you will develop technique so that the lightest weakest person can handle the heaviest recoil all through technique.
Nick Burkhardt said:
Yes sir, it’s your castle , but we would never steer you wrong. We are simply trying to put you on the fast track to where you are going to end up anyway, I guarantee you that.
The recoil is comparable in both. If you or your woman are recoil shy then you should train with lighter target loads and load up with defensive ammo that is branded "low recoil".....as you learn to shoot you will develop technique so that the lightest weakest person can handle the heaviest recoil all through technique.