.30-30 my latest reloads, and the state of the economy

[CaddmannQ]

when we annealed firing pins they always went into a bucket of coolant after the reached temp .....by 100's

If you want to harden something properly you generally have to get it soft first, which is what annealing is.

It's making the metal soft without melting it, and when you quench the metal or air cool suddenly, that hardens or tempers the metal.

When you do that with water or oil or in the presence of various other agents, you get a different level of temper (depending also on the steel alloy.)

I see gunsmiths can buy bone Char to use as an agent in case hardening steel receivers. It gives that old timey colored look like the evil Roy has.

In the tool shop they used to use a product called case-n-it or casenit.

It did the same thing but left them more modern-looking finish: not quite so splotchy.

It's also somewhat toxc. I understand that it makes cyanide fumes.

 

[hombre243]

I thought there'd be something electric like a soldering iron or an easy bake oven.

Is that the $600 thing?

Nope, it is a motorized turntable with a flame set at an angle. I believe it kicks out the brass and the operator feeds cases.

 

[CaddmannQ]

What bullets are you using? I want to try some polymer tips. I have been using the round nose . . .

Sierra round nose or flat nose semi jacketed bullets 150 grain.

I think the powder was H3031.
I have to check the notes.

 

[hombre243]

If you want to harden something properly you generally have to get it soft first, which is what annealing is.

It's making the metal soft without melting it, and when you quench the metal or air cool suddenly, that hardens or tempers the metal.

When you do that with water or oil or in the presence of various other agents, you get a different level of temper (depending also on the steel alloy.)

I see gunsmiths can buy bone Char to use as an agent in case hardening steel receivers. It gives that old timey colored look like the evil Roy has.

In the tool shop they used to use a product called case-n-it or casenit.

It did the same thing but left them more modern-looking finish: not quite so splotchy.

It's also somewhat toxc. I understand that it makes cyanide fumes.

I messed around with oil hardening years ago and it was just for funzies. I made a knife out of a blade from Green River. I read that cooking the blade in oil, burning the oil off and then letting it go til all the oil that will burn is gone, and letting it cool will harden the blade. Old time technology. I have no idea if it worked or not or how hard it got. It was mostly a patch knife for when I was playing mountain man in the bluffs and valleys in the Mississippi Valley in IL. Then I lost it in the woods and never saw it again.

 

[sullivan]

hombre #29
That link was very straightforward about Partial Neck Sizing but you can only try it. Test-chambering a partially sized one is a sensible precaution. A recommendation from long ago said to chamber your reloaded ammo from the magazine, just to see if everything would work in the heat of the moment.

BTW, after getting my rifle back from the smith, my first thought was to see if it fed from a full magazine with dummy ammo; bullets only, no primers. Would Not Work. They were too hard to load into the mag through the gate. I had to scrounge up some dead primers off the garage floor and re seat them to make it work.

Have you tried accurateshooter.com
They should have info on bushing dies, as would the makers.......maybe Sinclair? I am not familiar with the subject and cannot point you in the right direction.

 

[nitesite]

BTW, after getting my rifle back from the smith, my first thought was to see if it fed from a full magazine with dummy ammo; bullets only, no primers. Would Not Work. They were too hard to load into the mag through the gate. I had to scrounge up some dead primers off the garage floor and re seat them to make it work.

I am extremely interested in hearing more about this. Thanks!

 

[sullivan]

I am extremely interested in hearing more about this. Thanks!

As CaddmannQ says in #30, the tips hang up in the empty pockets. What do they say about the best laid plans I think that the primer gives the nose of the bullet something to slide on.
Hope that answers your question. Come to think of it, were you asking about the rifle having to go back to the shop?

 

[hombre243]

hombre #29
That link was very straightforward about Partial Neck Sizing but you can only try it. Test-chambering a partially sized one is a sensible precaution. A recommendation from long ago said to chamber your reloaded ammo from the magazine, just to see if everything would work in the heat of the moment.

BTW, after getting my rifle back from the smith, my first thought was to see if it fed from a full magazine with dummy ammo; bullets only, no primers. Would Not Work. They were too hard to load into the mag through the gate. I had to scrounge up some dead primers off the garage floor and re seat them to make it work.

Have you tried accurateshooter.com
They should have info on bushing dies, as would the makers.......maybe Sinclair? I am not familiar with the subject and cannot point you in the right direction.

I may order some dummy snap caps. And I am going to try to load without primers...I loaded several when I first got the rifle but I pushed the cartridges all the way in past the loading gate and they did work. I also loaded full rounds loaded and ready to shoot and those i did as the instructions said...load until the base is almost in the gate but not quite, then push the nose of the next cartridge up against the base of the one in the gate and push it in the rest of the way. Repeat this until the tube is full. Worked for me.

I did find several sources of info about the bushing dies. Forster, Sinclair, others but I didn't pay much attention to any but Forster. That gave me the info i needed. I had just never heard of that type of die. I am always fiddling with stuff so I will eventually try neck sizing, but right now I have all my 3030 stuff loaded.

I did load a few different loads and seating depths and tested the different loads one at a time to make sure they chamber easily. Then I loaded and crimped a tube full plus one and ran them through. This rifle feeds way better than the Marlin I had. It seems to be less finicky, either that or I just got lucky. Tomorrow we have a Range Officer down in no mans land and i may go try this rifle out. I want to target it and then next trip during the week when it is less busy I will chrono the loads I will hunt with. I have 3 rifles ready to test new bullets/loads for so I will chrono them all on the same day. That too will be soon I hope.

 

[nitesite]

As CaddmannQ says in #30, the tips hang up in the empty pockets. What do they say about the best laid plans I think that the primer gives the nose of the bullet something to slide on.
Hope that answers your question. Come to think of it, were you asking about the rifle having to go back to the shop?

No, that answered my question quite well... I knew it but wanted you to describe it for other guys who were trying the same thing and having similar problems. Thanks.

 

[hombre243]

As CaddmannQ says in #30, the tips hang up in the empty pockets. What do they say about the best laid plans I think that the primer gives the nose of the bullet something to slide on.
Hope that answers your question. Come to think of it, were you asking about the rifle having to go back to the shop?

I wondered if the polymer tips would hang up. I think Cadmann said he used them...I can see that. Can't remember asking about sending a rifle in to the shop...but, I always hate to hear someone had a problem. The way Mossberg warranty reads I would be afraid to clean the darn gun.

 

[CaddmannQ]

I have shot exactly 20 highly overpriced Lever Revolution polymer tip rounds, but I have not tried to re load any bullets with tips. They were about the best Shooters I've bought so far, but almost $1.50 a pop!

Without a primer in the pocket, the rounds strike each other at the wrong angle going in the gate, and instead of sliding they gouge on the loading gate and just hang there.

To make it work I wadded up a chewing gum wrapper into a little ball and mashed it flush into the pocket, and then it worked.

I did this because I didn't have any spent primers handy.

Oh by the way I had to increase the mainspring pressure a little bit on the 30-30. I was getting about 25% the strikes on the last batch.

Those were reloads, and it wasn't happening as often with the factory loads, so maybe we're making the cases a little short at the shoulder.

But in any event that hammer has to fall a little bit harder.

 

[oli700]

I bet you were hardening pins, right, as in case hardening? Annealing the brass softens it.

no, we sent them to hardening, they couldn't harden just the front so the hardened the entire pin.
when they came back, they were lined up butt out. You would take brazing set up that was used to silver solder front sights to barrels and heat the butt ends to temp, softening them, annealing them, then into a bucket of coolant stolen from the machine to cut receivers
If the process wasn't done then the butt of the firing pin would crack when the cocking piece was pined into the rear of the firing pin, the pin being machined fit oversize the hole by .001"

 

[CaddmannQ]

.... The way Mossberg warranty reads I would be afraid to clean the darn gun.

I decided that if I screwed up this gun, too bad. I wasn't going to go shipping it all over the country. They can keep their warranty. I took mine all apart two days after I got it. I just had to know what was inside.

 

[hombre243]

I have shot exactly 20 highly overpriced Lever Revolution polymer tip rounds, but I have not tried to re load any bullets with tips. They were about the best Shooters I've bought so far, but almost $1.50 a pop!

Without a primer in the pocket, the rounds strike each other at the wrong angle going in the gate, and instead of sliding they gouge on the loading gate and just hang there.

To make it work I wadded up a chewing gum wrapper into a little ball and mashed it flush into the pocket, and then it worked.

I did this because I didn't have any spent primers handy.

Oh by the way I had to increase the mainspring pressure a little bit on the 30-30. I was getting about 25% the strikes on the last batch.

Those were reloads, and it wasn't happening as often with the factory loads, so maybe we're making the cases a little short at the shoulder.

But in any event that hammer has to fall a little bit harder.

I am thinking Lee has some kind of adapter to load polymer tip bullets. (It may have been an article or post about all copper bullets...I am just not sure.) I may be wrong about that...but someone told me one of the popular bullets would not seat deep enough without the adaptive device...a ball bearing inside the cap, set on top of the seating pin.. I want to try loading the polymers. I have the powder . I will probably order some Hornady bullets first of the month. I will work out the bugs one way or another. I appreciate your input. The old thirty thirty is getting a new lease on life. But I don't really need the extra distance here in Iowa. I will be hunting in heavy timber or on the rolling hills. For the long shots I will have the Savage 308 or MVP 5.56. The 3030 is a second carry along gun. I am excited to git goin.

 

[hombre243]

I decided that if I screwed up this gun, too bad. I wasn't going to go shipping it all over the country. They can keep their warranty. I took mine all apart two days after I got it. I just had to know what was inside.

I probably will too. A dirty gun is an invitation to all kinds of problems. Hopefully this rifle is as good as Mossberg's hype says it is. I need to get to know it and you don't do that by letting someone else do all the maintenance. I do not tear them all the way down. Just far enough to make sure all the crud is out.

 

[CaddmannQ]

Well based on my experience so far this is a really sturdy design, with a few flaws in execution.

I've dressed a lot of little rough edges in the lock work. The grip safety was rough. The inside of the feed tube was a bit rusty. Rear sight was way off. Some of the machine work on the trapdoor was rough. (The surface that lifts the lock Bolt.) AND, I really think that the extractor design should be better. It's causing wear in the bore of the receiver.

All that being said I don't have any experience with old Winchesters and Marlins so I really don't have anything to compare this gun with experience-wise.

I took the butt stock off tonight and increased the Main spring pressure a little bit by re-bending the link.
The hammer's dropping harder now and I think those misfires should disappear.

 

[hombre243]

Well based on my experience so far this is a really sturdy design, with a few flaws in execution.

I've dressed a lot of little rough edges in the lock work. The grip safety was rough. The inside of the feed tube was a bit rusty. Rear sight was way off. Some of the machine work on the trapdoor was rough. (The surface that lifts the lock Bolt.) AND, I really think that the extractor design should be better. It's causing wear in the bore of the receiver.

I think it is sturdy also and I did not notice too many rough spots. But I have only had one other lever gun and it did not get fired a lot. I have nothing to compare to. The 464 is stiff but it is smooth enough. Not like buttered glass but not gritty. I give it about 10 to 20 cycles whenever I pick it up to gloat. When I first brought it home, I remembered I had read in this forum about cycling it empty a couple million times : ) after giving it an initial cleaning It will smooth out, and even more after it is shot. It just takes time. I have some black moly grease I used on the pivot on a Beaman spring air rifle. I smeared a dab on the hammer nose and along the rails the bolt slides on. I also have some German made lube that cost about 34 bucks for a 1/4 oz tube. Just touch it somewhere and it lubes everything in sight. I had to scrub ...never mind, I was getting carried away. As mentioned before, I will eventually strip it at least part way down. I just want to shoot it a few times before I mess it up.

Now I remember...you told me to clean out the tube when I got it home. I did that first thing. It looked like mud inside. I had to waste several patches to get it clean. But I did notice a difference even in the sound when I stuffed a few rounds in the tube.

Another thing: I have read where shooters mention the follower not being so good and asking if there is an after market metal follower available. Do you know of such an animal? I can probably make one or have a friend with a lathe make one out of brass or copper pipe. He is pretty handy that way. I think one of the articles on the subject mentioned making one out of a cartridge. The inside fits the spring just right and the base is turned or filed down to be a sliding fit in the tube. I will see what I can do with some of my old clunk casings. Best place to start is with something the size of a 3030 base. Maybe even a bit more snug.

 

[CaddmannQ]

We should probably leave those truck stop tales in the men's room...LOL

A lot of the roughness in mind was in that silver finish around the bolt and inside the receiver areas that had received that finish on the bearing surfaces and rails.

 

[hombre243]

We should probably leave those truck stop tales in the men's room...LOL

A lot of the roughness in mind was in that silver finish around the bolt and inside the receiver areas that had received that finish on the bearing surfaces and rails.

I remember you saying that. What is that, powder coat, electroplate like they do with chrome? I would be afraid I would chip the finish or smooth it too much. I am not real handy.

 

[CaddmannQ]

I think it's a sort of high temperature electrostatic paint with aluminum powder in it. I don't think it's like the regular polyester powder paint but more like a ceramic coating.

It does wear down...