.30-30 my latest reloads, and the state of the economy

[CaddmannQ]

I shot off the last 30 rounds of 150 gn Sierra Flat Nose reloads today.

I struggled getting the scope setup to work right with the Kwiksite mount, fighting to even hit paper at 10 yds.

To complicate things, the rail screws had come loose at some point. I had to tighten everything up, and work my way out, but eventually I put 30-30s on paper today at 230 yds. For the very first time.

I had run out of reloads so I had to switch to factory ammo and I threw everything off, so I was lost again.

 

[hombre243]

I shot off the last 30 rounds of 150 gn Sierra Flat Nose reloads today.

I struggled getting the scope setup to work right with the Kwiksite mount, fighting to even hit paper at 10 yds.

To complicate things, the rail screws had come loose at some point. I had to tighten everything up, and work my way out, but eventually I put 30-30s on paper today at 230 yds. For the very first time.

I had run out of reloads so I had to switch to factory ammo and I threw everything off, so I was lost again.

WHOA! 230 yards. Good shootin.

 

[nitesite]

WHOA! 230 yards. Good shootin.

yep.

Hope things get dialed in soon CaddmanQ

 

[CaddmannQ]

That 464 shoots pretty dang straight at 230 yds on the first shot. Then it goes wild like 6". I think it's the fact that the mag tube doesn't grow as long as the barrel because it doesn't get hot. I think that pre-loads the muzzle down a bit, then it whips more when you take the second shot.

It's a funky carbine, so I guess that's somewhat expected, BUT, I think it'll do better with the 170 or 180 grn slugs.
the 150's I was shooting are less consistant.

With the AR-15 I was able to hit the 12" gong at 185 yds 5 of 5 times. That's a rock steady gun, except that I shot it until the bipod literally fell off.

The screws backed off from vibration.

 

[hombre243]

That 464 shoots pretty dang straight at 230 yds on the first shot. Then it goes wild like 6". I think it's the fact that the mag tube doesn't grow as long as the barrel because it doesn't get hot. I think that pre-loads the muzzle down a bit, then it whips more when you take the second shot.

It's a funky carbine, so I guess that's somewhat expected, BUT, I think it'll do better with the 170 or 180 grn slugs.
the 150's I was shooting are less consistant.

With the AR-15 I was able to hit the 12" gong at 185 yds 5 of 5 times. That's a rock steady gun, except that I shot it until the bipod literally fell off.

The screws backed off from vibration.

You mentioned the rifle growin longer when it is hot. Makes me wonder if that magazine tube cap screw snuggled into that socket on the barrel has anything to do with this.What is its' purpose? The front band holds it all together. Have you unscrewed the screw just enough to clear the barrel but still stay threaded?

 

[CaddmannQ]

WHOA! 230 yards. Good shootin.

I didn't hit the bullseye. I got within 4" on the first try, but that's not good enough for a clean kill IMO.
I'm shooting at a regulation NRA target stand, and I missed the paper completely with 3 of 5.
One nicked the 8" sticky target, and one was just within it.

For a 60+ year old desk jockey, it's not bad shooting, but I'm sure I can do better.

 

[CaddmannQ]

You mentioned the rifle growin longer when it is hot. Makes me wonder if that magazine tube cap screw snuggled into that socket on the barrel has anything to do with this.What is its' purpose? The front band holds it all together. Have you unscrewed the screw just enough to clear the barrel but still stay threaded?

I just screwed it out and wiggled the cap loose, then snugged it back tight. I don't think it helped.

 

[hombre243]

I didn't hit the bullseye. I got within 4" on the first try, but that's not good enough for a clean kill IMO.
I'm shooting at a regulation NRA target stand, and I missed the paper completely with 3 of 5.
One nicked the 8" sticky target, and one was just within it.

For a 60+ year old desk jockey, it's not bad shooting, but I'm sure I can do better.

I am not doing even that good. I am going to have to start all over. This last trip to the range I had flyers at 50 yards that were off the paper. Something is wrong. If I have to dump the scope and use the open sights to see if there is any difference I will. I can get a refund or a new scope. I paid for the guarantee so that is a lot better than sending in the rifle. Before I do that though I have to check the hardware. Could be a mount screw came loose.

 

[hombre243]

I just screwed it out and wiggled the cap loose, then snugged it back tight. I don't think it helped.

I think I will try unscrewing the screw until I know it is clear of the indent. If it is touching the barrel as it gets hot it could be ...(here we go) upsetting the barrels harmonics. Just a stab at it, can that screw cause vibrations to change enough to cause thew barrel to go totally flaky?

 

[hombre243]

I looked all over the instruction manual and could not find ant barrel break in procedure/instructions. But in another forum someone posted the instructions for their new Howa and it was very specific about breaking the barrel in properly. The instructions were clear...shoot, clean, shoot , clean...never let the barrel get too hot because that will ruin the blahblahblah memory of the metal in the barrel which will destroy accuracy...and cause stringing.

Now I am wondering if that is not what is wrong with my rifle. I did not go through the full procedure but I did clean it before I went to the range and I did let it cool a little but not for several minutes. I know it got hot enough at one point that i got my arm kinda burned. Not blistered but it hurt like the devil. I may contact Mossberg again and ask what they recommend for break in and why it is not in the manual or at least included as a separate sheet of instructions. Hopefully if it is a burned up barrel I can get it fixed or replaced under warranty since there was no instruction concerning break in.

 

[CaddmannQ]

I think I will try unscrewing the screw until I know it is clear of the indent. If it is touching the barrel as it gets hot it could be ...(here we go) upsetting the barrels harmonics. Just a stab at it, can that screw cause vibrations to change enough to cause thew barrel to go totally flaky?

I'm totally certain that it can.

Anything that adds Mass to the barrel or touches the barrel at any point in its motion will have an effect, and generally the closer to the muzzle the greater the effect would be. ( this may not be true on rifles with strange Barrel profiles.)

I did a traditional break in routine of mine--the same one I do on all new rifles.

2 shots at 30 sec apart, wait 5 mins and swab the bore. Repeat 10 times, then tear it apart and clean everything.

But I have no scientific evidence that this works or that it's important. It's just something that I've always done--probably out of superstition more than anything.

 

[hombre243]

I'm totally certain that it can.

Read a review that said the 464 is extremely sensitive to bullet weight. I will be trying the heavier bullets soon. I will try backing out that screw also.

 

[CaddmannQ]

I saw the same thing and I'm pumping them up from 150 grain to 165 grain on the next reloads.

If that's not enough I'll go back to 170s.

 

[hombre243]

I saw the same thing and I'm pumping them up from 150 grain to 165 grain on the next reloads.

If that's not enough I'll go back to 170s.

I would be going to 170 and 180s now but i have to order them next month. For now, I will be loading what I have with lower powder charges. The 1/10" twist may be a finicky twist in this rifle and heavier will be better, and maybe even slower too. I am thinking Mossberg may be trying to make these rifles to be very similar in operation and performance to the original 94s and whatever lever guns fired the 30-30 or 30WCF. 1970 fps with a 160-170 gr bullet was the norm. As mentioned this rifle is not a bench gun. It is not expected to burn 1/2" groups in paper. But it should at least keep all bullets in the same county. I think the article I read said the first bullets were early jacketed...half jacketed lead round nose, 160 and 170 gr.

I emailed Mossberg to see if they recommend a barrel break-in procedure. I will post their answer. But I don't know how long it will take. I emailed them about shots stringing a couple weeks ago but have not heard back yet.

 

[sullivan]

Went to the range again today and nothing has changed, to cut a long story short. Shot my reloads with test-charges and even the book-maximum loads extracted without hesitation so there's a positive outcome. There was "only" one FT fire out of 14 instead of about 1 in 4 or 5 last week. Still not acceptable. The last 6 shots were fired in 2 groups of three. In both groups 2 shots landed an inch apart, with the third about 4 or 5" away in a vertical line.

Only the rear band was "tightened up" prior to this experiment and after this disappointing result, the front will have to be tackled. I was hoping to avoid this. It looks much more difficult and will take all my ingenuity

 

[hombre243]

hombre,
Bullets are 150 gn Sierra Round Nose. Previously used Winchester 150 gn FN, reloads. Hornady factory made 160 gn gummy tips shot well for say, 6 shots then started climbing. Tried them again a week later and they still strung out.

Makes me wonder why it went good for 5 or 6 shots. How long are you waiting for the barrel to cool? Also, a friend mentioned that bore polishing with Flitz or JB might help. Being button rifled should not cause roughness but who knows? I am going to start from scratch and scrub the bore again, just in case, even the patches are coming out clean. Then I will go through the break in process with the shoot, clean shoot, clean procedure mentioned in Savage's website. I am also going to see if there is any such instruction on the Winchester website for the 94. If it is different I will use it.

One other thing I have noticed, looking at bench shooters, etc, as in Larry Potterfield's demo video about breaking in a barrel I noticed the cradles are quite high. Because this rifle has more drop at the comb as well as the heel and toe (the butt slants down more than a regular sporter style rifle) it is possible that recoil helping the problem. But, our position at the bags may need to change. I know I am uncomfortable because I am scrunching down to get to the rifle because the whole setup is low to the table. In fact the Gorilla bag is so low, especially in the cradled position the toe rests on the table and I cannot use a rear bag. I am trying to keep weight down when i go to the range but I am thinking i may want to devise a higher rest or at least get something rigid to set the bags on so I can straighten up while I am shooting this rifle at the bench with bags.

The way it is, when I fire, in the position I am shooting from this rifle jumps out or off the bag, torques to the right and is all over the place. I have fired it offhand and it stays on my shoulder where it belongs.
I have a lot of trying "what-if's" before I am satisfied I have a lemon. Too many others are having the same problems as I am having so I am lookin at shooter errors as much as gun error. It could be a very simple solution but what fun would it be if the solution was too easy to find and fix?

I hope anyone who funds a solution will chime in and help us out. That's what were here for, right?

Thanks to everyone who contributes...then and now and in the future.

 

[nitesite]

I never thought a .30-30 lever gun of any brand would be so problematic. And it's not just one specimen. This saddens me to hear.

Kudos to you dedicated guys who are striving to get to the bottom of the problem and then find a solution. Much respect.

 

[hombre243]

Here is something I want to try, but am asking you who are having trouble with stringing to try this also...and whoever tries this please post your results:

I noticed that the position my right hand is in seems to be contorted and may be torquing the rifle. The trigger hand must squeeze the lever tight against the safety button. I have piano playing fingers and the skinny wrist is hard for me to squeeze the lever tight enough to push that safety button.

Here is what I will try next time out: Instead of running my fingers through the loop, I will squeeze the loop from outside and that will be a more natural grip for me. I know I did this several times but never noted whether it made a difference in shot placement. The way my hand was positioned inside the loop may have been causing me to pivot the rifle up with my index finger knuckle. Just like letting go of the bucket on a catapult, the rifle will have extra boost if this is the case. If this is why we are stringing shots, we may need to seek help from someone who designs custom loops. I found some online. As soon as I try this I will let you know what I find.

If the loop can be redesigned to have finger grooved on the outside of the loop, the loop may be too close to be able to insert the hand to shuck in a new shell. I use my thumb anyway so for me it won't matter. But the finger grooves will allow a closer but not too close grip for clamping the lever closed and should help reposition the hand to eliminate the torque.

I wonder about this because I do not remember my Marlin having this safety, and I don't remember having to grip the loop from outside, ever. One article said the Marlin is less bulky. Now I see there may be a reason for that.

 

[CaddmannQ]

I noticed that mine took a long time to break in the grip safety, to where it didn't tend to catch and spoil my shots.

Now before that, I was sometimes holding the lever outside instead of inside the loop.

But it was to squeeze the safety down better.

 

[hombre243]

I noticed that mine took a long time to break in the grip safety, to where it didn't tend to catch and spoil my shots.

Now before that, I was sometimes holding the lever outside instead of inside the loop.

But it was to squeeze the safety down better.

That is what I am referring to. My long fingers may be my problem, I may not have the same grip I used to have (Had to word that one carefully) so gripping outside the loop was easier for me. Anytime one has to exert extra pressure to accomplish something that sets up extra stress somewhere. It may be a contributing factor. I have to try it now that it is on my mind. If I don't it will bug the crap out of me.