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Less than Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.

Range report:

My wife and I finally went out shooting today. We went through some target loads and 00 Buck to get the feel for the recoil.

Then we tried the Less Lethal. No recoil and a minimal report. One of the other shooters was concerned that all of the powder did not ignite, but the shell was clean. At 7 yards the 15 rubber pellets left a wide circular pattern 18" high and wide. Not like the tight patterns from 00 buck. Sorry my pic was too blurry so see the holes since the box was rocking in the wind.

I took the second shot without hearing protection and experienced no discomfort. The pellet dispersal was nearly identical to the first shot.

Finally it was time for "The jug of truth" I set up a plastic milk jug filled with water on top of a tall box and shot it at 7 yards with rubber buckshot. Only 5 or 6 of the pellets and the wad struck the jug at that distance due to the spread. The pellets went into the jug but none exited the back. The jug stayed on the box and slowly leaked, unlike the one we shot with birdshot which was blown off and emptied of water instantly.


Front


Back


Recovered pellets and the wad. 5 or 6 went in and one may have skipped through my fingers and got lost in the gravel as I poured them out with the remaining water.

Other observations, the Fiocchi was harder to load into the action than the other shells.
 

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Next time you get to shoot I have a suggestion for a "training target" that will give you far better and more realistic feedback than water jugs or ballistic gelatin ever will.......Here is what you'll need:

2 old sweatshirts
1 old t-shirt
1 Large, Bone-in, non-spiral sliced ham (not frozen)

Stick the ham inside the t-shirt and then into each of the sweatshirts. You are essentially simulating a person in cold weather clothing. The ham is a solid mass of muscle and will react to a bullet in the same way as human muscle tissue......which is dramatically different than a jug of water. The birdshot which obliterated the jug will not have anywhere near the effect on the ham......the rubber shot will probably have no visible effect.

It's an eye opening experiment and something I put any handgun round I intend to use defensive purposes through as a final test.
 
The exploding water jugs were mostly for my wife to have fun with not penetration testing.

I was surprised that the rubber pellets penetrated the plastic of the milk jug since they should be non-lethal. One would definitely "shoot your eye out". I will put some old jeans or a sweatshirt in front of a jug of jello next time. I am not wasting a good ham.
 
Fps Russia has a great video called big wet jugs. Worth watching!

Sent from behind the hood of a long nose pete.
 
Nick Burkhardt said:
I was surprised that the rubber pellets penetrated the plastic of the milk jug since they should be non-lethal. One would definitely "shoot your eye out".
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who said anything about non....there is a big difference between non and less....pay attention, you can not only maim someone but you can easily KILL them , this sill isn’t a game just because you think you have a non killing round in your killing device

Nick Burkhardt said:
I am not wasting a good ham.
Click to expand...
You act like you never ate anything with a bullet hole in it
 
Nick Burkhardt said:
oli700 said:
You act like you never ate anything with a bullet hole in it
Click to expand...
Bullet hole yes, peppered with 300 birdshot pellets, no.
Click to expand...
:D don’t forget the shredded cotton sweater hanging out of all the holes
 
Nick - I've followed this thread on and off since the beginning. Up side (IMHO) is that you and your wife have discussed HD/SD carefully and at some length.

Down side is the amount of training that you have sought and the amount of shooting that you appear to have done in a 4 month period.

You were up front about being new to guns from the start. You've added a second gun, brought some #4 buck into the picture (many - myself included - would ask why?) rather than going with 00. You are not in a low lot line environment. If you are worried about penetrating interior walls of the house ( as in kid's rooms) remember rule #4 "Be sure of your target and what is beyond it."

I continue to hear you trying to strike some balance of controlling the situation and inflicting the least harm. You "estimate" the average BG in your area. I plan for the worst case scenario.

With two guns and two choices of ammo will you and your wife meet and discuss the best approach to what you believe may be happening in the front room? What (who) is about to kick in your bedroom door?
I'd suggest some professional training with real-time shooting scenarios and the decisions that go with them. Owning two shotguns is serious business. The initiatives that you have taken ( correct me if I missed something) in the last 4 months seems pretty slim. Thinking and chatting on forums is fine but is no substitute for real hands-on action training. NOT target shooting - training. Without it that BG that is outside your regional statistical estimate would be on you like white on rice.
 
Thank you for your reply mingaa

Since I did not grow up with guns, I never gave ownership a second thought until one day in January my wife brought up her home security concerns. Those were a home invasion robbery in a rural area 45 miles away last year, the December 11, 2012 Clackamas Town Center shooting at an Oregon mall that we go to, a New Years Eve armed robbery at a local liquor store where the police had to shot and kill the bad guy, and the occasional high teenager that walks past our house. So first I bought a 300 pound safe, then the shotgun.

My wife and I completed a five hour basic firearms safety & CCW class in April. I had the instructor (a retired FBI agent) explain to my wife that any use of a firearm is considered to be lethal force no mater what is loaded in it. She is very good at keeping her finger off the trigger until she is ready to shoot, so I no longer fear that she will accidentally shoot fluffy the cat.

I think I stated before (or maybe it was in another thread) the front bedroom window of our across the street neighbor is only 82 feet from our front door as measured by my construction laser. That is less than 100 feet from the center of our living room. A shot of 00 buck from that distance results in an unacceptable risk of injury to our neighbors. The Rio 21 pellet #4 buck patterns well at 7 yards and reduces the risk that a through-and-through pellet will end up in our neighbors bed. The first shell that I load in the tube, and the last out, is 00 buck because if I need to fire a fifth shot to heck with over penetration.

My wife wanted a pistol so we picked out a Bersa Thunder 380. She picked it for its ridiculous amount of safety features and it fits her hands. I bought myself a full size Beretta PX4 in 9mm for practice and back-up home defense. We have been out to the public gravel pit to practice four or five more times and she is very good with the shotgun, not so much with the pistols.

I found out about a local NRA Basic Pistol Shooting Course too late to sign up, so we will have to wait for the next one to roll around to our rural area later in the summer.

We are still trying to hook up with her half-brother in Washington State who is a firearms trainer for a state prison, but he is always busy. I want to make sure that we have mastered the fundamentals before moving on.

That is all for now. Any suggestions or if you know of good training in Northeast Oregon, please let me know.
 
Nick,

Took me a while, but I read through this whole thread and came to one conclusion: "This dude holds his own".You posted a question asking for our opinion on self defense loads, and you certainly received a response :D I, just as many here, would not suggest to use rubber rounds as a self defense load, and would stick to 00 or #4 Buck ( not bird!!!)

Here are some helpful, albeit wordy articles that may "sway" you ;)
Some Thoughts on the Combat Shotgun
The Box O' Truth

But... this has already been thoroughly covered, and while we certainly would like to sway your opinion on the matter, in the end it's definitely up to you and your family to make the right decisions. It would be no different if this were a home brewing, or jeep forum... EVERYONE knows something (and likes to tell you) ... you just have to make an informed decision on the matter.

AK
 
Nick Burkhardt said:
We have been out to the public gravel pit to practice four or five more times and she is very good with the shotgun, not so much with the pistols.
Click to expand...

pistol shooting is by far the hardest of all shooting to be good at. Takes a lot of practice to learn all the fundamentals and put them all together at that moment the trigger breaks......sounds like your on your way , keep up the good work !!

if you cant find the local training opportunity you are looking for you can try dry fire practice and dry reloading practice. The dry fire practice is really good because it helps you get rid of any flinching when the trigger breaks.....1000 controlled dry trigger presses and you less apt to pull the shot due to trying to compensate for recoil or a flinch...
 
oli700 said:
pistol shooting is by far the hardest of all shooting to be good at
Click to expand...

OMG yes... while I earned a sharpshooter ribbon for pistol with the CG... doing drills and quick shooting outside of the controlled qual test has been quite a challenge... plate racks are my fav :D
 
Well, I have read all four pages of this thread.

One thing that stands out in this thread is the continued use of the term "Less Than Lethal".

It's "Less Lethal". As in it is less likely to kill but can still kill you dead if things aren't optimum.

Less Than Lethal would be a taser or pepper spray, but it usually doesn't include anything in the form of a projectile coming out of a centerfire cartridge from a modern firearm. That could be construed as having the potential for Lethal Force.
 
aksavanaman said:
Nick,

Took me a while, but I read through this whole thread and came to one conclusion: "This dude holds his own".

AK
Click to expand...

Probably the most influential piece of information is that in the eyes of the law a shotgun is lethal force no mater if you are shooting buck, bird, salt or rubber, so why handicap yourself. Birdshot was never an option for us because it make an awful mess; a large shallow wound and hundreds of lead pellets to clean up off the floor.

While our shotguns are currently loaded rubber, #4, #4, #4 and 00, I am going to talk to her about moving that rubber to the sidesaddle. I say anyone positively identified as a threat in the house who will not leave gets #4 buck first, but I still see a use for rubber buckshot. Since we cannot legally fire a live round as a warning shot and blanks are still considered to be lethal, rubber fills that grey area between shoot or no shoot.

For example, that 72 year old Granny in California with a disabled veteran husband who tried to hit a bad guy trying to open her sliding glass door with a .357 Magnum http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/06/12/gr ... -in-calif/ Someone outside your home, but forcing open a sliding glass door is a shoot/no shoot grey area. The bad guy won't obey your verbal commands, is told that you have a gun but does not hear or care and keeps working on the door. I'd sure like to fire a warning shot but with lead you either damage your wall, break your own glass door, miss through the open gap like Granny did but hit your neighbor instead or with my luck kill the guy who ends up being the beloved village idiot who only wanted to come in for milk and cookies. A low "warning shot" with rubber buckshot would be warranted while the bad guy was still outside, but if that door comes down its #4 buck.

oli700 said:
pistol shooting is by far the hardest of all shooting to be good at. Takes a lot of practice to learn all the fundamentals and put them all together at that moment the trigger breaks......sounds like your on your way , keep up the good work !!

if you cant find the local training opportunity you are looking for you can try dry fire practice and dry reloading practice. The dry fire practice is really good because it helps you get rid of any flinching when the trigger breaks.....1000 controlled dry trigger presses and you less apt to pull the shot due to trying to compensate for recoil or a flinch...
Click to expand...

She signed up with the local A Girl and A Gun Club and has her first ladies nite shoot this Thursday.

We have .380 and 9mm snap caps for dry fire practice, but need a brand recommendation for 12 gauge.

Our safe is getting pretty full of guns an ammo and I am thinking of getting a Shotlock to keep our shotgun secured http://www.costco.com/ShotLock-Universa ... 09953.html

Anyone have one?
 
Nick, I can't answer your question re: snap caps, but as others have said concerning rubber it's your call. I don't have any neighbors in range and the rules here are quite a bit different than what you have up there I suspect, so my guns are always loaded with lethal rounds. My Mariner carries alternating slug and 00. Slug is first up.
 
GunnyGene said:
My Mariner carries alternating slug and 00. Slug is first up.
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Gunny... I imagine you as a younger Clint Eastwood holding your Mariner up to some 20something-good-for-nothin's face and saying "You mess with me... you get 1oz of LEAD for dinner :twisted: "
 
aksavanaman said:
GunnyGene said:
My Mariner carries alternating slug and 00. Slug is first up.
Click to expand...

Gunny... I imagine you as a younger Clint Eastwood holding your Mariner up to some 20something-good-for-nothin's face and saying "You mess with me... you get 1oz of LEAD for dinner :twisted: "
Click to expand...

Midnight snack :twisted:

midnightsnack.jpg~original
 
I'll keep that in mind in case an intruder brings a car into my house. That is some serious over penetration.

Anyone test buck and ball?

s7_218434_030_01
 
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