Nitride madness

[John A.]

She's together.

Complete with nitride treated operating system. Exactly the way I predict the industry will go where suppressed weapons are concerned. Go ahead and archive this. You saw it here first.



The handguard was 6 ounces heavier than I wanted than the other handguard I ordered unfortunately, though it's still very manageable. That will bring the grand total weight of the upper to 3.79 pounds. Plus suppressor (as for now, it has my original F1 suppressor and the new one will weigh less, so I'm going to wait until I get the stamp back and total it up, but should come in around a pound in total (or less).



@oli700 you were asking about the Anderson receiver and handguard rail match-up. Here ya go.







And size comparison to a standard 16" M4



Now, if FedEx will show up in time with the ammo so I can go sight it in and see how it groups, I'll update with pictures later.

 

[CaddmannQ]

There must be 30 places to get ammo in my local, and 20 to get powder etc. too. There's at least 10 real gun stores.
It's much different if you live in the really big cities here. not so easy. You can't buy a thing in San Francisco.

 

[WNCmotard]

That is seriously BAD ASS John! Very nice work, also what is on the underside of your butt stock? Rolled up sling maybe?

 

[oli700]

Filthy little bitch aint it

 

[John A.]

No motard, it's not a sling. It's the locking lever on the buttstock that locks between the different positions. The Ergo F93 buttstock is a rough clone of this stock, but not exactly. The attachment mechanism is different. This one doesn't have a castle nut. It is timed using shims and a crossbolt goes through it. It is as solid as a fixed stock. There is ZERO movement in any way once you get the LOP adjusted and you lock the latch down.

It happens to be the very first buttstock that was sold to a civilian when the AWB ended (yes, I have the invoice). So I suppose you could say that I was magpuls first customer that wasn't LEO or military. Or at least that was buying something other than mag pulls.

Further, that particular stock is one of the "Detachment One" buttstocks, which means it was one of the actual stocks that was submitted to SOPMOD for hands on testing by the military. When I first got it, it was a very light tan color and had a number stenciled/painted on the tube. I don't recall the number now as I duracoated it in its' current rattlesnake paint job probably 10 years ago or more when I first put the SBR together.

By looking at it, you may not could tell there is that much history with that stock, but there is. I suppose that's why I haven't changed the stock to something more current. It's just a lot of sentimental value I guess. Plus, that stock is awesome.

Oli, I went through about 50 rounds this evening because I didn't have too much time. Funny you should mention dirty.

Suppressed shooting always fouls up the receiver.

ALWAYS.

But it's amazingly clean. Wiped right off with a rag, and very little lube on the BCG and it ran great.

Smooth action.

And no hiccups whatsoever.

I'm very glad that I chose to go with all Nitride for this.

I was also surprised at something else. I zero'd this at 25 yards. And at 25 and 50 yards both, the subsonic 220 and supersonic 120 are both hitting within the 3 inch circle. I really expected the 120's to print much higher on the target than the subsonics due to the higher velocity and lower bullet weight, but that was not the case. They're shooting about the same without having to mess with the sights once it was zero'd with the 220 subsonics.

 

[oli700]

the 50 and 25 yard thing doesn't surprise me I think that is about right .....you need a chrono to fill in a part of the puzzle.....are you absolutely positive you are sub sonic ? and how fast is your super....they may be close together than you think

 

[John A.]

I don't have a Chrony. And I shot both subs and supers suppressed and un-suppressed.

Though in person, you can tell what's going on easier than you can in video.

The suppressor is getting some first round pop, which is pretty common with rifle calibers.

I don't get that with 9mm and 38 special, but in all fairness, the subsonic blackout is twice as much powder than either of the pistol cal's even with comparable velocity. After some of the oxygen is burned in the suppressor (which is what the first round pop is), it's a lot quieter for the next shots until you stop for a period of time and air fills up the suppressor again. Then the process repeats. In the video, you can sort of tell from 0:40-0:48 is the best example that I can pick out to explain it.

The camera and the cliff bouncing a lot of the sound back, does not really do it justice and tell the whole tale. Even with the first round pop, there is no ringing or hurting ears and it isn't bad at all, even without ears on. With the upcoming suppressor, I have a few idea's how I can reduce or eliminate the first round pop. Mainly by reducing the expansion chamber size. It's pretty large in the first suppressor (almost 2 inches). The shorter the expansion chamber, the less oxygen that can be displaced and burned, the less "noise" that can be generated by the oxygen burning in there making first round pop. Though I need to do some serious research to make sure that I don't get too short and make it very gassy and increase backpressure. Today was not a bit gassy. And the empties ejected about 3 feet out. Lazily.

And another option for FRP is to add some wire pulling gel in the expansion chamber (which is commonly referred to as introducing media or running a "wet" suppressor) and the gel doesn't drip out in storage like water would, so it can be squirted in there and essentially forgotten. The only downfall is it's messy to clean up and I'd rather shorten the expansion chamber.

 

[oli700]

That will bring the grand total weight of the upper to 3.79 pounds.

sights, EOtech and light ?

lets see lower and all on the scale, - the supperssor

 

[John A.]

Sights are probably about an ounce. They're both mostly plastic.

Their website says the Eotech is 11.1 oz

I can't find the specs on the light and mount, probably 5 oz maybe? If that much. Its a 2 AA rayovac "indestructible" light.

It will be losing some weight when the new can is done, so, all, or much of this will be negated.

 

[John A.]

Sorry I missed your edit.

I can't weigh the whole gun. My scale only goes up to about 3 pounds. It's just a little shipping/cooking scale.

My bathroom scale doesn't register anything under 10 lbs. So I can't really weigh it all in one piece.

Lower is 40.4 oz. That is including the H buffer, tubbs flat coil cs buffer spring, and the stock is heavier than an M4 or Moe or CTR stock, which you don't really notice since the stock is against your body and the gun swings better because it seems to balance the feel out a little better.

So, if my math is correct (which I suck at math), 2.5 lbs for the lower. Another pound for the hardware. I'm still about 7 pounds total, which is about what a naked M4 runs.

With this suppressor, it's front heavy for reasons I've already went into. But this suppressor is only there temporarily until I get to make the other that I will likely only be running on this one, and the M10 sometimes. Maybe the 9mm AR pistol when my boys want to use it on there too. But I can't get a final weight on it until the fat lady sings her song.

 

[WNCmotard]

This history on that stock is really cool, and looks like she performs well from the video, congrats on a very successful build.

 

[John A.]

Thanks. And to you too.

Now, if I can get her quietened down a tad more, I'll be content. But that's a project for another day.

 

[oli700]

The thing that really told me was the gong, compared to the sound of the rifle it is super loud on the steel .

Do you think it is quieter than a 45 ?...
I think the 45acp I shot suppressed was not as quiet as I expected.....I figured since it was so slow and fat that it was going to be real quiet but not really

 

[John A.]

I have observed the same with 45. I now use the #2 suppressor in my dedicated suppressed 22lr AR upper.

Despite that 45acp is inherently subsonic, I think the large bore hole, just allows too much gas to escape into the atmosphere in a straight line shot through the suppressor without being suppressed.

There are only two 45 suppressors that I think were seriously good.

1. Delisle carbine, but they were more of an integral suppressor that bled off a lot of the gas through barrel porting before it went through the suppressor. This is also what makes the shotgun suppressors work.

2. Sionics Mac 10/45 suppressors.

The latter was a screw on can and had a brief stint with special forces in Vietnam, the Entennebe airport raid, etc but they used what they call a wipe at the end of the suppressor that contains the gas as the bullet passes through a slit in the rubber wipe. They wear out very quickly, but the first mag or two through one was respectable sounding. But it's a short term fix and hurts accuracy too.

The thing with the blackout though, the bullet is .308, compared to .356 but the 9mm is much quieter, despite being a larger diameter.

 

[John A.]

Oli, you're question about 45 acp got me to thinking last night of another option to maybe quieten down or reduce the new suppressors FRP some.

The bore through the old suppressor is considerably larger than it needs to be (10mm) due to having limited access to a lathe at the time. I used a friends machine, but my time on it was limited to their schedule, but with the upcoming suppressor, I have virtually unlimited access and can make the bore diameter smaller and tighter, maybe even as tight as ~3/8" since it's technically a 9mm suppressor and not a .308.

Aside from shortening the expansion baffle down to .75" baffle spacing, the tighter bore may also help quieten it down some too.

So that's another thing I am going to do with the new suppressor. I think between both things, will get it as quiet as I know how to do. At least with a removable can anyway.

 

[oli700]

Oli, you're question about 45 acp got me to thinking last night of another option to maybe quieten down or reduce the new suppressors FRP some.

The bore through the old suppressor is considerably larger than it needs to be (10mm) due to having limited access to a lathe at the time. I used a friends machine, but my time on it was limited to their schedule, but with the upcoming suppressor, I have virtually unlimited access and can make the bore diameter smaller and tighter, maybe even as tight as ~3/8" since it's technically a 9mm suppressor and not a .308.

Aside from shortening the expansion baffle down to .75" baffle spacing, the tighter bore may also help quieten it down some too.

So that's another thing I am going to do with the new suppressor. I think between both things, will get it as quiet as I know how to do. At least with a removable can anyway.

nice, anything helps but it sounds as quiet as any video really....the gong sounded like the Liberty Bell , the gun sounded like a 22CB

 

[John A.]

I believe it is an achievable goal to make it more quiet. I just have to decide the design that I think will work the best and run with it because there are no "do-overs" with homemade suppressors. It's a 1 shot deal.

Had I known that this project would have taken this turn, I would have simply done the math to make an integral suppressor because I have no doubt that would make it spooky quiet, but I wanted the ability to exchange a light weight suppressor between host guns, so that's what I'm going to do.

 

[John A.]

Got some powder and primers in today. Have some 220 gr Sierra matchkings in the basement.

BUT, I was able to get my order in for 500 rounds of leatherhead bullets before the move. And the 500 bullets, were a grand total of $70 shipped. Which should give me some decent cost efficient plinking ammo for a while. Beats the heck out of $50 for 100 rounds of matchkings every day of the week.

http://leatherheadbullets.com/30-cal-220-grn-rn-blackout-500-ct/

 

[WNCmotard]

I'll have to check those out John, thanks.

 

[John A.]

Finally was able to get started and loaded up my first 10 rounds of the 220 gr Leatherhead bullets.

I started with just 10 rounds because I'm having to work up a load for these. I have a couple of different powders that are known to work well with the subsonic blackouts, but the 1680 seems to be the most popular, so that's where I'm starting with these.

Later this evening, I plan to check velocity average through the chrony, check for groups and to ensure that I'm not getting any keyholing or anything, and if those first few rounds do well enough, I'm going to try to get a db reading with the suppressor attached.

Since I installed the new trigger (CMC flat bow), I'm certain that my zero will be off some because I was having a terrible time with the old trigger when I first got the upper built and was trying to zero it, so I'm not specifically shooting for groups. Just getting a rough idea on whether I'm on the right track with this specific recipe as for bullet, powder, primer combo, etc.

I followed Leatherheads seating depth recommendation of 2.065", and made a light crimp to ensure the bullet doesn't wiggle around until I pull the trigger.

So far, so good.