Mossberg 500 vs AR for SHTF!

[Tater]

It depends on what the SHTF situation is.

Something like the LA riots or a natural disaster, I'll take a shotgun.

If I will have to use it to get food I want a shotgun.

If I'm in a militia unit with both defensive and offensive duties, or I'm alone in an active combat area, I'd have a 7.62x39 or 5.56 NATO.

 

[ronnielc]

I like my AR 15 for accuracy, capacity, reload, and distance. I can put in my 22 lr bolt for small game. I keep a suppressor on mine so it is much quieter than my Mossberg and with 22lr it is very quiet.

 

[cmcdonald]

These questions are always good for entertaining conversation and can be thought provoking, but if I only get out with one firearm something has already gone horribly wrong.

If the world went sideways tonight, how many who have posted in this thread would be ready to go at the drop of a hat? Is your gear packed up right now and ready to grab? Is everyone in the house on board with the plan and know their role? What about while you were at work or somewhere away from home today? In this case you may very well find yourself cut off from your home and supplies in a situation where you only have one firearm, an extra mag or two, and the clothes on your back. Do you have a "plan B" for that scenario? Just something else to think about if you haven't already...

We'd definitely struggle if everything went haywire tonight. Probably like a lot of us, I have some provisions in the vehicle and most at home. But not enough.

I've been slowly pulling together a plan, but frankly to have extra of everything you're gonna need just in case...set aside is expensive these days. Then to not waste anything ya gotta be right on top of rotating some items out and new stuff in before the old is no good anymore.

Not to mention, living in the burbs here in Canada it's difficult to explain to Mr. LEO why I'm packin' my 12 ga around in the vehicle. Not that I can't...but saying "just in case"...well that just don't cut it here. If I said I was on my way to shoot or hunt, no prob. But, I have trouble lying about that kinda stuff...could cost me my guns in the end. I gotta plan this out really well.

 

[Scott M]

Gear and food is in a single central location to the BOV, firearms are ready to go, BOV is full of gas, ammunition isn't packed though and I have insufficient food for bugging out long term. Those are somethings I need to address....

 

[cmcdonald]

I was thinking about concealing a small(er) ammo cache in the vehicle. An SUV with folding seats has some extra compartments and little nooks and crannies in which I could store some reserve ammo without much of a legality issue...as long as it's stored properly.

I've already bought a large tote(camo of course)for the SUV in which to store emergency gear and supplies. Now to just fill it and organize it. The trouble with carrying a lot of stuff all the time, if you need to use the space for practical purposes...ya gotta unload it all to transport large items etc. (The perfect excuse for getting an ol' deuce and a 1/2 like I've always wanted, and park it in the backyard...just for emergencies...right!!)

 

[FyrFytr998]

I think this thread may also speak to each of our individual SHTF philosophies. In a SHTF situation, I guess my plan is actually more about choosing my way to die rather than selecting a plan for long term survival. I do not plan to bugout, at all. I'm gonna die right here. Maybe much sooner than many of you, but it's my choice. That said, how much ammunition I can haul is a very moot point. Take care. Tom Worthington

I'm in agreement with Tom. Bugging out might not be a viable option for some. I have two young daughters and a wife with fibromyalgia. While more dangerous, sheltering in place is my move. We've never been outdoorsy people. So to thrust that on them is selfish and more dangerous than staying put. In the elements with two small terrified kids and a wife who has physical reactions to things as small as weather shifts....well that's an automatic no win situation. If I'm to die, it will be with my boots on defending my castle.

Another SHTF concept people seem to neglect is that their SHTF plans may already be moot just by virtue of where they live. I personally live within miles of multiple strategic military targets. Two main bridges, a major natural gas line, an airport, and Sikorsky's Black Hawk assembling facility make this a high value target area. So I may not have a chance to do a damn thing realistically. So again, strap on the boots and go out guns blazing, lol.

Sheltering in place with my 500 and slug/00 buck combo.

 

[MikeD]

If Hollywood and life have taught me anything it's that chaos is just that. Having multiple game plans, diversity of skills and adaptability will be much more usefull than the gun you have in your hand when things go south. Depending how things go bad, the gun on hand may be not be the most pressing issue.

I like these topics thought because they always offer new and interesting perspectives as well all have different plans based on out own situation, locale, etc. Knowledge is the best weapon we have, the more we know the better we can survive with whatever we have with us when the world takes a dump.

 

[Shoten Tactical]

The Mossberg 500, like any other pump action shotgun, possesses the versatility an AR15 15 does not. The AR is an over-penetrator while at the same time it cannot be counted on for a one shot stop. The round itself was promoted in Nam for tying up personnel. SWAT uses it in situations where distances under 200-300 meters with a scope makes sense. Headshots focused on taking out the medulla oblongata to immediately shut down the central nervous system preventing secondary reflex action. However, a home defense situation is a whole different set of circumstances. High stress and close in distances requite a one shot stop. Until you have experienced it for yourself, the physical and psychological changes you experience precludes many of the preconceived notions you may have. Historically, the big argument against a shotgun loaded with slugs being overkill pales in comparison to the known fact the .223/5.56 is a nasty over-penetrator and has been known to enter one part of the body and exit in an entirely different one. Versatility, folks. The AR15 fires one type of round and it is NOT a one shot stop.

 

[Elucase]

That's one down for the wound, two to get him off the battlefield, and everyone else can hear his cry of pain.

 

[oli700]

The AR is an over-penetrator while at the same time it cannot be counted on for a one shot stop.

I would like to know the firearm that is counted on for a one shot stop.
The 223/556 is not an over penetrator with the right projo. It is a well-known fact that a 75gr HPBT will not penetrate walls as deeply as 00B.
It’s a well-known fact that an AR is more precise than a shotgun, carries more ammo, follow up shots are faster, a greater variety of spouses can use them.
A simple fun test of ammo types will confirm this. Just line up a bunch of milk jugs. I cannot get three jugs deep with 75gr HPBT, a 9mm pistol penetrates further with 124gr HST hollow points.

The AR15 fires one type of round and it is NOT a one shot stop.

That statement is full of wrong, many ammo choices from a ballistic tip 40gr round that stops 2" into flesh, to steel core that will blow through 1/4 inch mild steel plate, to 77 gr SMK that will reliably make one stop shots to 700 yards. The AR 15 is one of the most versatile, modular long guns ever shouldered by a human......
This subject has been discussed and beat to death all over the web, general conscious these days are an AR15 with the proper ammo choice is superior to a shotgun in HD, look around some sites, Box of Truth has some stuff as well.



Now for the question at hand SHTF
The AR will defend you close up, medium range and at long distance.
It will feed you close up, medium and at distance. I have personal exp with deer that were dead before they hit the ground, one shot stop repeatable…and that was with a Mini-14
It will field a round that will not destroy a rabbit and in the same mag field a round that will crack an engine block.
If placement isn't your thing then you can have 29 more tries, and reload mags in a blink of an eye.
The 223/556 ammo is logistically superior, storing, hauling and acquiring.
One reason the military isn’t running around with AA12’s is logistics, 12 guage ammo is heavy, bulky and not as impervious to rough handling and adverse weather, namely moisture.
If in SHTF, you will be able to find AR-15 parts, mags and make repairs in the field with a tooth pick. The mil spec AR is meant for this. With a Mossberg 500 one bolt may not work in another Mossberg 500 as well as other critical parts. Milspec AR’s will work time after time with a great many companies parts.
The AR is the most common long gun in the hands of American patriots. If you are the guy with a shotgun in the foxhole you are not only worthless in a fire fight but your taking up valuable cover…….you might get called on if a door lock needs to be breached
I would challenge anyone who is sitting on a mountain of shotgun slugs to do more bad than I can, faster than I can with 6 mags of 223 at 50 yards. Chances are I get lead on all targets before you load your second tube.
I won’t even consider 00 buck in such a case because each pellet is 30 cal roughly 50 some gr each going 1600 fps. If you’re lucky 4 out of 9 pellets are on target and once they are there they aren’t placed in a “one stop shot” area unless you’re lucky twice. Not even in the same category as 55 gr going 3200 fps, placed precisely. Even a 55gr fmj is designed to yaw in the flesh, taking a turn breaking bone till it makes its exit.
I could go on and on but I actually hate typing, the facts are out there.....The AR15 fires one type of round and it is NOT a one shot stop is not one of those facts, never was, never will be

 

[clarke187]

You really couldnt go wrong with either one.

 

[tattooo]

Im in NJ also....I would go with the AR & a ton of nuetered mags

 

[Tater]

I would like to know the firearm that is counted on for a one shot stop.
The 223/556 is not an over penetrator with the right projo. It is a well-known fact that a 75gr HPBT will not penetrate walls as deeply as 00B.
It’s a well-known fact that an AR is more precise than a shotgun, carries more ammo, follow up shots are faster, a greater variety of spouses can use them.
A simple fun test of ammo types will confirm this. Just line up a bunch of milk jugs. I cannot get three jugs deep with 75gr HPBT, a 9mm pistol penetrates further with 124gr HST hollow points.

That statement is full of wrong, many ammo choices from a ballistic tip 40gr round that stops 2" into flesh, to steel core that will blow through 1/4 inch mild steel plate, to 77 gr SMK that will reliably make one stop shots to 700 yards. The AR 15 is one of the most versatile, modular long guns ever shouldered by a human......
This subject has been discussed and beat to death all over the web, general conscious these days are an AR15 with the proper ammo choice is superior to a shotgun in HD, look around some sites, Box of Truth has some stuff as well.

Now for the question at hand SHTF
The AR will defend you close up, medium range and at long distance.
It will feed you close up, medium and at distance. I have personal exp with deer that were dead before they hit the ground, one shot stop repeatable…and that was with a Mini-14
It will field a round that will not destroy a rabbit and in the same mag field a round that will crack an engine block.
If placement isn't your thing then you can have 29 more tries, and reload mags in a blink of an eye.
The 223/556 ammo is logistically superior, storing, hauling and acquiring.
One reason the military isn’t running around with AA12’s is logistics, 12 guage ammo is heavy, bulky and not as impervious to rough handling and adverse weather, namely moisture.
If in SHTF, you will be able to find AR-15 parts, mags and make repairs in the field with a tooth pick. The mil spec AR is meant for this. With a Mossberg 500 one bolt may not work in another Mossberg 500 as well as other critical parts. Milspec AR’s will work time after time with a great many companies parts.
The AR is the most common long gun in the hands of American patriots. If you are the guy with a shotgun in the foxhole you are not only worthless in a fire fight but your taking up valuable cover…….you might get called on if a door lock needs to be breached
I would challenge anyone who is sitting on a mountain of shotgun slugs to do more bad than I can, faster than I can with 6 mags of 223 at 50 yards. Chances are I get lead on all targets before you load your second tube.
I won’t even consider 00 buck in such a case because each pellet is 30 cal roughly 50 some gr each going 1600 fps. If you’re lucky 4 out of 9 pellets are on target and once they are there they aren’t placed in a “one stop shot” area unless you’re lucky twice. Not even in the same category as 55 gr going 3200 fps, placed precisely. Even a 55gr fmj is designed to yaw in the flesh, taking a turn breaking bone till it makes its exit.
I could go on and on but I actually hate typing, the facts are out there.....The AR15 fires one type of round and it is NOT a one shot stop is not one of those facts, never was, never will be

While this is a great write-up on the virtues of the 5.56, most of which I agree with (except for deer hunting for which I believe it is too light - a .22 LR will kill a deer one shot stop repeatable, but I sure don't recommend it), some of your SHTF logic falls far, far short of reality.

Let's consider your food gathering logic first. I'll agree you can take a deer or hog with one with a good shot. But in a prolonged situation where gathering food was important, I'd be hunting squirrel, rabbit, raccoon, rat, dove, quail, pheasant, pigeon, turkey, dog, and probably cat if it went on long enough. Of these, which would you rather have, a shotty or a 5.56? My answer is a shotty and I won't go hungry.

As far as the AR being the most common long gun in the hands of American patriots, I'm not sure I agree. I am an American patriot and stand ready to serve and die for my country any day any time. I don't own an AR. So, this logic fails.

As far as me in a foxhole with a shotgun, don't worry. I won't climb in your foxhole if you don't climb in mine. Fact of the matter is, trench warfare isn't too common these days.

Your assertion of being able to do more bad faster with a .223 at 50 yards than I could with a shotgun is probably true. Yet, I'm not sure this applies to many SHTF scenarios. It's not like there will be hoards of charging troops on the horizon.

I only know of two SHTF scenarios in recent history. The LA riots and New Orleans during Katrina. In either of these situations, either an AR or a shotgun would get the job done reliably and efficiently.

Now, back to the AR platform which you espouse is the cat's meow for all defensive purposes. I won't disagree, but there are other options. Let's take the AK47 and the 7.62x39 round. This cartridge is similar to a 30-30 and by comparison is plenty to put a deer down. And the AK platform is one of the most reliable weapon systems ever invented. It's likely that you will never need to replace parts on one.

Final thoughts...

I think the highest probability of SHTF is gangs of looting thugs. One load of 00 buckshot turning one thug's belly into pulp would probably discourage the rest of them.

A mob such as in the LA riots? Yes, I'd like an AR or AK but the reality is that a load of buckshot fired into a crowd is probably going to have the same effect as a few blasts from a rifle. The spread on the shotty could possibly work in one's favor.

There's no better or worse in my opinion. It comes down to what you have.

 

[yz9890]

While this is a great write-up on the virtues of the 5.56, most of which I agree with (except for deer hunting for which I believe it is too light - a .22 LR will kill a deer one shot stop repeatable, but I sure don't recommend it), some of your SHTF logic falls far, far short of reality.

Let's consider your food gathering logic first. I'll agree you can take a deer or hog with one with a good shot. But in a prolonged situation where gathering food was important, I'd be hunting squirrel, rabbit, raccoon, rat, dove, quail, pheasant, pigeon, turkey, dog, and probably cat if it went on long enough. Of these, which would you rather have, a shotty or a 5.56? My answer is a shotty and I won't go hungry.

As far as the AR being the most common long gun in the hands of American patriots, I'm not sure I agree. I am an American patriot and stand ready to serve and die for my country any day any time. I don't own an AR. So, this logic fails.

As far as me in a foxhole with a shotgun, don't worry. I won't climb in your foxhole if you don't climb in mine. Fact of the matter is, trench warfare isn't too common these days.

Your assertion of being able to do more bad faster with a .223 at 50 yards than I could with a shotgun is probably true. Yet, I'm not sure this applies to many SHTF scenarios. It's not like there will be hoards of charging troops on the horizon.

I only know of two SHTF scenarios in recent history. The LA riots and New Orleans during Katrina. In either of these situations, either an AR or a shotgun would get the job done reliably and efficiently.

Now, back to the AR platform which you espouse is the cat's meow for all defensive purposes. I won't disagree, but there are other options. Let's take the AK47 and the 7.62x39 round. This cartridge is similar to a 30-30 and by comparison is plenty to put a deer down. And the AK platform is one of the most reliable weapon systems ever invented. It's likely that you will never need to replace parts on one.

Final thoughts...

I think the highest probability of SHTF is gangs of looting thugs. One load of 00 buckshot turning one thug's belly into pulp would probably discourage the rest of them.

A mob such as in the LA riots? Yes, I'd like an AR or AK but the reality is that a load of buckshot fired into a crowd is probably going to have the same effect as a few blasts from a rifle. The spread on the shotty could possibly work in one's favor.

There's no better or worse in my opinion. It comes down to what you have.

Boy I don't agree with any of that except for shotguns being a better option for the smallest of small game. I'd still prefer a 5.56 for a 9" animal though.

 

[MikeD]

As far as the AR being the most common long gun in the hands of American patriots, I'm not sure I agree. I am an American patriot and stand ready to serve and die for my country any day any time. I don't own an AR. So, this logic fails.

I don't like McDonalds therefore they must not be a popular fast food joint.

Now, back to the AR platform which you espouse is the cat's meow for all defensive purposes. I won't disagree, but there are other options. Let's take the AK47 and the 7.62x39 round. This cartridge is similar to a 30-30 and by comparison is plenty to put a deer down. And the AK platform is one of the most reliable weapon systems ever invented. It's likely that you will never need to replace parts on one.

I will agree that the AK is probably the best fighting carbine ever made but to think that you will never have to replace parts is being a bit short sighted.

There's no better or worse in my opinion. It comes down to what you have.

This I will partially agree with. What you have may suck but knowing how to make the best of whatever you have is better than only knowing one platform.

When thinking about a true SHTF we really need to think outside the box. Circumstances change fast and this ain't Hollywood.

 

[John A.]

The AR15 is the most popular rifle being sold in the U.S. and has been for years, so I agree with the assumption that many people do own them, though that is not saying it's the "only" good long arm out there either. I'm not speaking for Oli, but I know that he knows that too.

 

[oli700]

Tater
well , its good to have different opinions for sure.
A lot of what we both said can be argued to no end.
Trade offs with everything.....actually I would rather have a good 22lr for small game.
A shotgun would be more versatile for a variety of game and priceless for wing hunting but ammo choice dictated a lot of that and a good assortment of the right ammo for the job at hand might not be that easy to find, transport and such. There is no denying the versatility of a shotgun but it come at the price of ammo choice and it is bulky and heavy for the amount pound for pound.
I guess foxhole is just a figure of speech
What else..., I personally have first hand knowledge of deer going down to 223, not a head shots but right behind the shoulder, not an extra step was taken
7.62x39 is an awesome round in its element. AK is an awesome rifle in its element, I just happen to believe the AR is more versatile at the end of the day.
We all have our preferences and one on top of my list id high accuracy, AK's and SKS's are sweet fighting guns , minute of center mass in most situations but in my experience they , or I just aren't as accurate as I like.....plus they aren't as easy to fix or work on as an AR.....but one could ague it wont break, but it will like they all will.....its all arguable
Everyone's SHTF wont be the same and if I lived in a different place I would probably reevaluate
One of the greatest fighting minds of all time , Jeff Cooper, believed the ultimate "do all" is a short 308 bolt action with a low power LER scope.....not for me but I wouldn't argue it.
Anyway I don't feel like picking apart your post, I see a few places to dispute but if the plan works for you great
You have good opinions and glad you have your preferences figured out....any of it or them is better than nothing for sure

The AR15 is the most popular rifle being sold in the U.S. and has been for years, so I agree with the assumption that many people do own them, though that is not saying it's the "only" good long arm out there either. I'm not speaking for Oli, but I know that he knows that too.

you know my mind and can speak for me anytime. I own far more wood and blued traditional firearms than true fighting weapons. That being said they all make a hole and I think if you utilize the greatest weapon ever you would be ok with most anything, your brain.
Hell I would LOVE that Bullpup SKS for a lot of situations

 

[aksavanaman]

Oli must be tired... that sure was a tame response I walk around life basing all my decisions on whether Oli will ridicule me for it later

As for SHTF... the answer to this debate is quite literally in the acronym is spells out. When you throw a hand full of s#!t against a fan... it's gonna splatter in all directions, and in no predictable pattern.

Real life will be the same, and each scenario completely different depending on your living situation, your preparedness level and of course training. I'm pretty darn good behind a shotgun and a rifle... my handgun skills leave much to be desired. So even in a defense situation I'd much rather go with the former choices.

I'm gonna have to go with the masses here and agree that the AR platform lends itself better to a wider variety of uses than a shotgun. I've seen rabbits taken cleanly with an M&P sport and a cheap red dot. My friend shoots 3 deer every year with his Mini-14 with iron sight (yes, not an AR... but pretty darn similar) using quality ammo. And I doubt we need to ask any Taliban folks whether they'd like to get shot with an AR or M500... I'm sure they'd choose neither.

Shotguns are THE MOST destructive force a person can legally (and reasonably) wield within 20 yards, no doubt about it. BUT.... what happens if you have 8 guys coming at you and your family because you've prepared and they want you supplies. I'll take my chances with the AR any day over my 590A1.

 

[oli700]

I walk around life basing all my decisions on whether Oli will ridicule me for it later

It just means I like you, never personal and I expect return fire....its all in good fun. If I truly don't care for a guy I just pretend they don't exist lol

 

[aksavanaman]

It just means I like you, never personal and I expect return fire....its all in good fun. If I truly don't care for a guy I just pretend they don't exist lol

I just strive to be as cool as you, thats all I rarely take things personal, unless it's you claiming to be an operator with better MOA accuracy... I've seen your youtube vids makes me think of this guy when I watch...